Are Pilots Professionals?

[Sidebar]

I've seen lots of chatter recently about how pilots need an independent professional oversight body, much as lawyers have a Bar Association or doctors have a College of Physicians and Surgeons.

My question is, why do people think that pilots should be considered professionals? Sure, lots of pilots get paid to fly. However, any stick-monkey wannabe can go out and buy a commercial licence, with an unlimited number of attempts permitted to pass the various tests if they don't meet the standard initially. What makes pilots so special that they should be put in a similar category as are doctors, lawyers, and engineers (just to name a few so-called professions)?

[Widow]

Pilots should be professionals. It is the current system that permits them to sometimes behave unprofessionally, IMHO. They hold peoples investments, and their very lives, in their hands. They should not be permitted to do so without being held to professional codes of conduct.

If there was indeed a Professional Pilots Association/College, the "any stick-monkey wannabe" wouldn't make the grade.

[Cat Driver]

Some pilots could be considered professionals, however it is borderline cretins who drag the industry standard down.

[mcrit]

However, any stick-monkey wannabe can go out and buy a commercial licence, with an unlimited number of attempts permitted to pass the various tests

Ask some lawyers how many runs they took at the bar.

Are pilot's professionals? That's an interesting question. By some of the definitions at dictionary.com we do fall into that category. Do we need a college type body to make us more professional? Again, interesting question. It would depend on how that body was constituted. If its governing body was made up by a majority of working pilots, and it was mandated to to represent pilots to the government and owners, it could do a great deal to improve safety and pilot working conditions. If on the other hand it were consituted mostly of non-pilots and charged with overseeing pilots on behalf of the government (I am using the Ontario College of Teachers as a model for this), I don't see it doing much good.

[Widow]

From my presentation at the Round Table (http://safeskies.ca/events/2009-04-21_a ... evens.html):

I know there is a small group of pilots who, perhaps discouraged by the lack of regulatory initiative, are trying to form a professional college whose goals are to promote safety standards, training standards, technical issues and accredit Canadian pilots from the youngest commercial pilot to the Airline Transport Pilot near the end of his career. They are the aviation experts who wish to fill an obvious void - the void into which safety concerns fall due to the lack of filter, if you will, between Transport Canada and the owners and operators. Their goals, if adopted, will go a long way to ensuring Canada has the best trained pilots and a safer industry.

[slowstream]

Perfectly stated Widow,

I also agree that there should be a board in place to see that a code of conduct and rules are in place to govern pilots, set a high standard and weed out the garbage! How could any of that be harmful?

I think it is repugnant and a oxymoron to include Lawyers into a professional category, as for Doctor's, Engineer's etc, they are also human, and thus have been known to make mistakes both as human error and through gross negligence, causing loss of of life and loss of investment.

Having a professional association or board could and should have better standards set for the profession, which would raise the safety level and protection for the flying public, the crew and as a member could also provide a level of protection to those who would and regularly do abuse these crews.

IMHO, this really is a no-brainer, its not about right of passage!

[slowstream]

However, any stick-monkey wannabe can go out and buy a commercial licence, with an unlimited number of attempts permitted to pass the various tests

Ask some lawyers how many runs they took at the bar.

Are pilot's professionals? That's an interesting question. By some of the definitions at dictionary.com we do fall into that category. Do we need a college type body to make us more professional? Again, interesting question. It would depend on how that body was constituted. If its governing body was made up by a majority of working pilots, and it was mandated to to represent pilots to the government and owners, it could do a great deal to improve safety and pilot working conditions. If on the other hand it were consituted mostly of non-pilots and charged with overseeing pilots on behalf of the government (I am using the Ontario College of Teachers as a model for this), I don't see it doing much good.

Most respected boards at least to my knowledge, the governing bodies are made up of working members, non-working members, members of the authority (T.C, FAA ETC), members of the other associated areas and the general public; this allows for openness, fairness and to ensure that all aspects are brought to the table.

This is in stark comparison to the Bar association who ensures that all matters are kept behind closed doors, away from the public, it has the power to remove privileges and the right to practice, but it primarily protects the member from prosecution and from the public.

[Cat Driver]

For this to work the members of the board must be elected by the membership and a time limit be in place to re-elect all members.

The only qualifications to run for elections must be the candidate can not be an owner of a AOC nor a government employee.

Let the membership then decide who they want representing them.

[fortis risk]

I'd be all for an association of sorts as long as it did more to limit entry to those who truly qualified as professional and did not protect the incompetent, lazy or stupid.

I believe the current system sets the bar too low for hire. If we look at the Colgan Air pilot who piloted the Q400 into the ground. Would he qualify as professional? Would our association protect him or weed him out? Would we raise standards or lower them?

When thinking about these issues its important to think like a passenger, not as only a pilot. Do we want higher standards on our flightdecks? I would think so, but how many pilots that we know would be excluded by those standards? Would I?
Pilots, just like drivers, think that they are above average in skills and professionalism.

It's true that if you spend enough money you can achieve all the qualifications needed to fly commercially. Unlike professionals mentioned previously we have no entrance requirements to training and there is no wash out. Just the need to spend more money if you fail. That is the fundamental difference.

Raising the standards would also have economic benefits. There is an overabundance of pilots "qualified" to do a scarce number of jobs. If we weeded out the unfit perhaps we could expect to reap the rewards.

[mcrit]

This is in stark comparison to the Bar association who ensures that all matters are kept behind closed doors, away from the public, it has the power to remove privileges and the right to practice, but it primarily protects the member from prosecution and from the public.

If you want to talk to me about the foibles of lawyers please feel free, but I have to tell you that you are preaching to the converted.

Like I said previously, if a 'College of Pilots' were well constituted it could work nicely. The major caveat in there is that forming such a college will mean getting politicians involved, and that opens the door to all sorts of unpleasantness. I can see ATAC spending some 'effort' to ensure their influence in the legislation forming the college.

[slowstream]

For this to work the members of the board must be elected by the membership and a time limit be in place to re-elect all members.

The only qualifications to run for elections must be the candidate can not be an owner of a AOC nor a government employee.

Let the membership then decide who they want representing them.

Cat,

I agree that members just like any other board should be elected, plus a time limit and no owner of a AOC. I however don't completely agree with "no government employee", not all of them are poor. They would only be one voice, and they would bring a certain level of knowledge with them. Additionally, if there were a hypothetical case of gross negligence on the part of a crew or a owner of a AOC then it would follow logically to the authority level, only if voted by the board, otherwise that member would not be a official agent of T.C and would only be a member of the board. This also keeps the findings and process open to the public, this is a tool to keep the public safe and allows for following action by affected members and affected passengers or family.

[slowstream]

If you want to talk to me about the foibles of lawyers please feel free, but I have to tell you that you are preaching to the converted.

Like I said previously, if a 'College of Pilots' were well constituted it could work nicely. The major caveat in there is that forming such a college will mean getting politicians involved, and that opens the door to all sorts of unpleasantness. I can see ATAC spending some 'effort' to ensure their influence in the legislation forming the college.

mcrit,

Nope, I just wanted to take the time to note my opinion of them, at least the vast majority of them being nothing more than working or thieving rats who are responsible for B.S in our society.

[Hot Fuel]

Pilots should be professionals. It is the current system that permits them to sometimes behave unprofessionally, IMHO. They hold peoples investments, and their very lives, in their hands. They should not be permitted to do so without being held to professional codes of conduct.

Why single out pilots? what about taxi drivers, ambulance drivers, school bus drivers, limo drivers, bus drivers and rickshaw runners? Whats the test to be considered professional? The number of lives one percieves to be held in thier hands? I think everybody needs to get over this notion that because we choose to sit behind the controls of an aircraft for hire we are instantly special, that this choice instantly commands a $100,000.00 salary with 15 days off a month. If its lives, perhaps the standards and pay for non passenger related flying should be lower?

[Cat Driver]

O.K. Slowstream maybe an elected government employee who can work hands free of the government department they work in could be allowed on the board.....but I draw the line at any involvement of ATAC.

[Widow]

How much money does it cost "taxi drivers, ambulance drivers, school bus drivers, limo drivers, bus drivers and rickshaw runners" to get licenced? Can their love for the job be exploited in the same way a pilot's can?

If you don't think of yourself as a professional when you fly for pay, you should not be flying.

[MrWings]

Are pilots not fined/suspended if there is a major disregard to regulations?

Not every doctor, lawyer or engineer that makes a mistake is immediately kicked out of their profession. It depends on the severity of the error and the intent.

[CD]

I feel that you shouldn't just focus on a single organization like ATAC... What about some of the other alphabet soup groups like NATA, NACC, HAC, AQTA, etc.? I'm sure that there are other organizations representing AOC holders out there as well.

[Hot Fuel]

So is the test how much money one spends to obtain a licence? Love of job? I've meet guys that work on hog farms that love their jobs.

[MrWings]

Love of job?

In what units is love of the job measured?

[square]

In what units is love of the job measured?

How about the number of dollars below the poverty level you'll accept to work?

[Hot Fuel]

My position is that professionalism doesn’t come with a price tag on either side of the equation or potential body counts when things go bad. It’s an attitude, and a way of conducting yourself during the performance of your assignment. I think the whole “I hold peoples lives in my hand” argument is a red herring.

I don’t see minimum rest periods, maximum hours or consecutive days or any other such protections for cab drivers, city or school bus drivers but a bad day results in just as much sorrow. Are they any less professional? Some love their jobs just as much as the folks flying bait runs; crop dusting or trans-oceanic.

I think the notion that pilots as group are exploited is a bit too general a statement. There may be a few operators that actually think it through and operate their business with that exact thought in mind; however I believe the vast majority never give it a second thought. They look at the market and what the guy next door is doing.

On the other hand the up and comers have stars in their eyes, when things don’t work out the way they do in their dreams they cry exploitation and cite they would have done anything for love.

You can make a good living in aviation; with schedules and a life style other opportunities can’t offer. However you have to do your homework and understand what you are getting into before you jump.

[slowstream]

Having a board and code of ethics and conduct has nothing to do with us feeling that we are special or should be considered special! The public perception is that we should be professional and that we should have a code of conduct. All one has to do is to refer to the military in any country, one must be an officer in order to command an aircraft, be a pilot, and as an officer they have a higher set of standards governing them than that of a enlisted private or corporal, etc. The same could and should be said for the private sector.

I believe that we do need a higher set of standards. This has little to do with the cost of education, but rather the responsibility of the position, the cost of human lives and property damage, again its about holding us to a higher standard than that of a taxi driver. I'm sorry if you can't see that and no offense intended to taxi drivers. To try and draw a comparison is like trying to put a code of conduct on everyone in society ........ apples and oranges, really.

As far as T.C enforcement, I personally see a board acting a standard and a code, then a first step into investigations, also as an advocate for crews in dealing with airlines and transport. There is a great deal that a board could do to benefit crews, passenger safety and relations between all parties.

The effectiveness of such a board would depend greatly on how it would be set up, who was elected and how changes can be made to the system, lack of common sense, too much red-tape, too much bureaucracy, then you end up with another Transport Canada or ATAC. Prime example is the Bar, all investigations are private, kept private from the public, some medical boards or college of physicians are similar in that they do not have to report malpractice or any evidence presented.

Cat,

I agree, and I have no use for ATAC!

[Cat Driver]

Cat,

I agree, and I have no use for ATAC!

ATAC is just another " good old boys club " with agendas that have SFA to do with working pilots.

What you guys need is someone like me on your side, someone who has been through the learning curve and understands how the system should work.

Not to mention I am beyond needing to prove anything and prefer kicking ass instead of licking ass.

[fortis risk]

deleted

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm sure everyone is thinking this -- why did you stay and did you exercise those options you mentioned -- not a flame -- just curious -- sorry JC - didn't mean to hijack your handle