Corporate vs Airlines

Discussion of topics related to corporate aviation throughout the world.

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780Pilot
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Corporate vs Airlines

Post by 780Pilot » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:29 am

Can't decide between the two.

Thoughts?
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mmm..bacon
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by mmm..bacon » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:03 am

Apply for both, and take whichever one calls first? You might not have the choices that you think you do...one 'wrong' answer in the interview process..
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780Pilot
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by 780Pilot » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:31 am

mmm..bacon wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:03 am
Apply for both, and take whichever one calls first? You might not have the choices that you think you do...one 'wrong' answer in the interview process..
Fair enough. I am currently sitting on 2300 ish TT and 1100 of it is Multi IFR. So I can really go either way. Cant hurt to shoot for both!

Thx!
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:29 pm

Airline pays you to fly, Corporate pays you to wait (not necessarily at home mind you).

Decide which you prefer ;)

58
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 pm

Depends on the operator for corporate. There are some private operators in Canada that have some pretty outstanding situations.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by Yycjetdriver » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:34 pm

CL-Skadoo! wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 pm
Depends on the operator for corporate. There are some private operators in Canada that have some pretty outstanding situations.
+1. There are some outstanding true flight departments out there. However, those jobs are very hard to come by and you would probably next at least 5X the experience you stated, but more importantly a connection with someone on the inside.
Some of the aircraft management or fractional ownership companies have tight margins and forces them to run fairly tight. This results in not much better working conditions than any other small 703/704 operators, schedule aside.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:21 am

CL-Skadoo! wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 pm
Depends on the operator for corporate. There are some private operators in Canada that have some pretty outstanding situations.
Fewer and fewer it seems nowadays, management companies have really clouded the landscape. You've got Chartright (growing like a weed), Skyservice, Execaire, Flightpath, Starlink, London Jet Services, Jetport, and then you have the fractionals fighting for those that can't commit to the risks of owning their own jet.

I think most of the major banks, except for 1, are run through Skyservice in Toronto. I wonder how much they are actually saving? I guess anything is good for the bottom line.

Regarding the OP, I was just having this discussion in another thread with a couple of chapped AC pilots, when you consider the opportunities and security at the majors it's hard to justify a corporate career, particularly regarding upgrades. You gotta be self driven and always watching your back in corporate. Jumping into a management position early on with a good strong company is advisable, as it will provide you with an invaluable skillset that is highly transferable across many industries.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:33 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:34 pm
CL-Skadoo! wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 pm
Depends on the operator for corporate. There are some private operators in Canada that have some pretty outstanding situations.
+1. There are some outstanding true flight departments out there. However, those jobs are very hard to come by and you would probably next at least 5X the experience you stated, but more importantly a connection with someone on the inside.
Some of the aircraft management or fractional ownership companies have tight margins and forces them to run fairly tight. This results in not much better working conditions than any other small 703/704 operators, schedule aside.
What I've found in the past is the ownership groups make all the difference from company to company. It has less to do with who's managing the bird, granted some push charter harder than others. Some good questions to establish are; Are they organized, do they need a lot of charter to offset costs, 3 vs 2 crew, typical destinations, holiday, business or mix? Don't trust a chief to give you this info, they just want to fill a seat and will sell snow to a inuit to do it, in many cases they do not know a particular ownership groups percularities. Once you sign a bond, all bets are off and you have little to no recourse unless you've established clauses in the agreement.

A little bit of research about a particular jet goes a long way.

780, I wish you a long and safe career my friend.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by whatsitdoingnow » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:37 pm

Another thing to remember is you don’t build time that fast in the corporate world. As mentioned above, if you want to get in a good gig, you’ll need considerably more hours than you currently have. If you go the airline route, you’ll build time fast and still have the option (if you really don’t like it) to move into the corporate world. It’s a lot harder to do it the other way around a few years down the road especially at the speed the airlines are currently hiring and securing a seniority number.

Either way, now is a good time to be looking so good luck.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:09 pm

whatsitdoingnow wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:37 pm
Another thing to remember is you don’t build time that fast in the corporate world. As mentioned above, if you want to get in a good gig, you’ll need considerably more hours than you currently have. If you go the airline route, you’ll build time fast and still have the option (if you really don’t like it) to move into the corporate world. It’s a lot harder to do it the other way around a few years down the road especially at the speed the airlines are currently hiring and securing a seniority number.

Either way, now is a good time to be looking so good luck.
+1
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:04 pm

My corporate bias may be showing, but it is a curious trend that when people ask questions about corporate flying the discussion is pretty civil. Yet, when airline talk emerges a complete free-for-all, WWE style royal rumble breaks out with one or two characters being smashed over the head with a chair and suplexed into a table.

I’m not sure why that is, perhaps our population is just so small that we don’t have enough for a good online brawl.

Anyway, I like my job but many roads lead to some city that is bound to fall. Go enjoy yourself as best you can, while you can. I’ll go back to my glass of tastiness while wishing you the best.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:06 am

CL-Skadoo! wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:04 pm
My corporate bias may be showing, but it is a curious trend that when people ask questions about corporate flying the discussion is pretty civil. Yet, when airline talk emerges a complete free-for-all, WWE style royal rumble breaks out with one or two characters being smashed over the head with a chair and suplexed into a table.

I’m not sure why that is, perhaps our population is just so small that we don’t have enough for a good online brawl.

Anyway, I like my job but many roads lead to some city that is bound to fall. Go enjoy yourself as best you can, while you can. I’ll go back to my glass of tastiness while wishing you the best.
Guilty of being a glutton for punishment. Sometimes you need to kick a hornets nest to get 'em to move, but I'll tell ya, nothings better than a good suplex and coffee to wake a fella up in the morning.

I think as long as the discussion brings up valid points, then it's done it's job, regardless of the occasional WWE antics.

As far as corporate goes, there are certainly improvements that can be made. First and foremost is pilot retention, we need to design a way, particularly within management companies, to retain high quality pilots when hulls begin to move, I think an EI top-up plan would be an excellent way to help keep guys on the roster versus letting them fend for themselves. The only thing good about a release is the fact that the bond is null and void, lol.

Secondly is wage suppression. Management companies, which have a dominant presence in Canada, do not do a good job competing for talent. They instead compete to see how cheap and how long they can lock in said talent. This is what tends to drive away quality candidates. Sorry for the generalization, just an observation from the companies I've worked with. It's a bit of a art setting up working conditions and as long as you armed prior to negotiations, you can do well, but it may end with you being on the street.

Lastly is the scheduling and crewing. Comparing a typical 10/5 rotation on a 3 crew jet, those flight crew have nearly 120 guaranteed days off versus 0 with a 2 crew 365. The push to keep things as cheap as possible has allowed the narrative to be delivered to the owners to think they can fly 200+ hours of charter plus their personal allotement without any need for time off unless the jet is down.

I'd say those are the three major threats to corporate in Canada.

Now that being said, what I love about corporate is I know who I'm flying with. It tends to be at normal hours during the day. The metal is very well kept (tell a C-suite exec their plane is not safe to fly and see how fast that part gets fixed). The destinations are occasionally exotic. I tend to have copious amounts of time at home with my family, sometimes more, sometimes less. I am well compensated for my experience and time on the road. As an experienced pilot the job security and demand for said experience provides a good feeling towards the future of corporate aviation.

It's not all good and it's not all bad, it just is a job where we get to do what we love and occasionally look down on the airliners 🤭, lol.

CL-Skadoo, I hope we get a chance to meet and potentially fly together, along with any other of the kind folks I've I've had the opportunity to chat with in this section.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by rippey » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:44 am

Secondly is wage suppression. Management companies, which have a dominant presence in Canada, do not do a good job competing for talent. They instead compete to see how cheap and how long they can lock in said talent. This is what tends to drive away quality candidates. Sorry for the generalization, just an observation from the companies I've worked with. It's a bit of a art setting up working conditions and as long as you armed prior to negotiations, you can do well, but it may end with you being on the street.
Your observation is spot on. Unfortunately management companies still seem to find people to work for subpar wages. I really have a hard time understanding how some companies are able to claim that 120k to fly a Global/G5/7X etc and live anywhere close to a city where large biz jets tend to operate from is a 'competitive' wage. However, still remains the only way they can keep costs down for the owner without impacting their bottom line - if they cut hangar rent, drop fuel prices, cut management fees it's money out of their pockets. Keeping salaries low doesn't cost them anything, nor do the extra training costs to replace the pilots when they depart for greener pastures - that tab gets picked up by the owners.

I think eventually the experienced pilot pool will dry up and things will start to change. But for now, if you are in your 50s, maybe a couple kids in college, and you lose your six figure corporate salary and your options are 4 years <60k at the airlines, with not enough years left to really climb very high up the seniority ladder, or a job with a management company that pays 30k less than it should, but still almost double the airline salary which are you going to take? And I am guessing this, and also the expat guys that are fed up with the sandbox, or the far east and looking for a way to get back home is the main reason management companies have been able to find people to fill seats at crap wages.

To the OP, I've been in corporate for 15 years, and have had a fantastic career flying all over the world with great people - no complaints at all. That being said if I was 10 years younger in the current airline hiring environment I'd probably be gone - to have a schedule and be able to tell my wife that 'Yes I am around so we can go away that weekend' is a huge draw and something I've rarely been able to say. At this point I can't 'afford' to make the jump. Which I guess could be seen as a downside in corporate - making a good wage can act as a trap, preventing you from sacrificing a few years at a terrible wage in order to eventually make it to the very good money/working conditions - but I am 'trapped' in a job I love.

For you I'd take the advice above. Go to the airlines, if after a few years you decide its not for you, you can come over to corporate with a more competitive resume, and quite possibly see an improvement in the industry regarding pay/working conditions. If you go corporate first and then make the switch to airlines you'll be sitting number 42 for deicing in LGA, looking at your pay stub wondering where the hell the rest of it is, sharing a cockpit with a captain who took your spot in AC ground school when you decided to go corporate, with only the memories of your week-long layovers in Maui to keep you warm!
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by Liftdump » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 am

Your observation is spot on. Unfortunately management companies still seem to find people to work for subpar wages. I really have a hard time understanding how some companies are able to claim that 120k to fly a Global/G5/7X etc and live anywhere close to a city where large biz jets tend to operate from is a 'competitive' wage. However, still remains the only way they can keep costs down for the owner without impacting their bottom line - if they cut hangar rent, drop fuel prices, cut management fees it's money out of their pockets. Keeping salaries low doesn't cost them anything, nor do the extra training costs to replace the pilots when they depart for greener pastures - that tab gets picked up by the owners.

I think eventually the experienced pilot pool will dry up and things will start to change. But for now, if you are in your 50s, maybe a couple kids in college, and you lose your six figure corporate salary and your options are 4 years <60k at the airlines, with not enough years left to really climb very high up the seniority ladder, or a job with a management company that pays 30k less than it should, but still almost double the airline salary which are you going to take? And I am guessing this, and also the expat guys that are fed up with the sandbox, or the far east and looking for a way to get back home is the main reason management companies have been able to find people to fill seats at crap wages.

To the OP, I've been in corporate for 15 years, and have had a fantastic career flying all over the world with great people - no complaints at all. That being said if I was 10 years younger in the current airline hiring environment I'd probably be gone - to have a schedule and be able to tell my wife that 'Yes I am around so we can go away that weekend' is a huge draw and something I've rarely been able to say. At this point I can't 'afford' to make the jump. Which I guess could be seen as a downside in corporate - making a good wage can act as a trap, preventing you from sacrificing a few years at a terrible wage in order to eventually make it to the very good money/working conditions - but I am 'trapped' in a job I love.

For you I'd take the advice above. Go to the airlines, if after a few years you decide its not for you, you can come over to corporate with a more competitive resume, and quite possibly see an improvement in the industry regarding pay/working conditions. If you go corporate first and then make the switch to airlines you'll be sitting number 42 for deicing in LGA, looking at your pay stub wondering where the hell the rest of it is, sharing a cockpit with a captain who took your spot in AC ground school when you decided to go corporate, with only the memories of your week-long layovers in Maui to keep you warm!




Nailed it
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by Duukar » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:31 pm

Where you are right now I would gun for the airlines. The market has changed a lot since I was growing up as a pilot, when multi pic was king. If you enter the airline system at this early stage you will do very well long term. That experience will open up higher end corporate gigs if you choose.

Corporate will net you about 300-400 hours per year with some longer layovers. You can fly some nice planes and those type ratings can be nice to have.

The problem is at your experience level you will need to stay at one company for any hope of an upgrade. Even after 3 years of corporate you won’t even break 4K hours so a direct entry captain spot at another company is out of the question. Pick very wisely or this can be a big setback.

If the airlines don’t bite there are some decent cargo and medevac operators where you can get 500 hours a year that will upgrade you within a year with your time.

A company like Morningstar may hire you onto their Caravan and then will promote from within to the B757 when your seniority number comes up. Within a year likely.

Lots of options. I think Airlines > Cargo/Medevac > Corporate for where you are.

Good luck!
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by 780Pilot » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:44 pm

Duukar wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:31 pm
Where you are right now I would gun for the airlines. The market has changed a lot since I was growing up as a pilot, when multi pic was king. If you enter the airline system at this early stage you will do very well long term. That experience will open up higher end corporate gigs if you choose.

Corporate will net you about 300-400 hours per year with some longer layovers. You can fly some nice planes and those type ratings can be nice to have.

The problem is at your experience level you will need to stay at one company for any hope of an upgrade. Even after 3 years of corporate you won’t even break 4K hours so a direct entry captain spot at another company is out of the question. Pick very wisely or this can be a big setback.

If the airlines don’t bite there are some decent cargo and medevac operators where you can get 500 hours a year that will upgrade you within a year with your time.

A company like Morningstar may hire you onto their Caravan and then will promote from within to the B757 when your seniority number comes up. Within a year likely.

Lots of options. I think Airlines > Cargo/Medevac > Corporate for where you are.

Good luck!
Never even considered Morningstar. Thx for the tip!
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:01 am

780Pilot wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:44 pm

Never even considered Morningstar. Thx for the tip!
Worlds your oyster.

Fully agree with Duukar.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by 757 Driver » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:39 pm

Morningstar is hiring direct entry 757 FO, no need to fly the Caravan if you're not interested in that.
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Re: Corporate vs Airlines

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:01 pm

757 Driver wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:39 pm
Morningstar is hiring direct entry 757 FO, no need to fly the Caravan if you're not interested in that.
The fact the '57 is open direct is pretty cool, used to be years before you could bid Boeing. The Caravan ain't bad though, 10-12 days a month, no nights and pay has increased a bit with an LOU, don't know the exact figures, but it's helped stabilize the fleet.
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