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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:34 pm 
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Good day corporate guru's. Im seeking honest information from chief pilots in the corporate world . To get first jet first officers position . I have been in the "game" for many years. Uber pic time and turbine (pt6). But my total time exp seems to be causing some to turn away thinking would not be happy as first officer ( I don't need to be a jet captain by monday morning). I would really like to be a good f/o. Reasoning, I've never really been one , left seat( 90% or more of the 11.7k total time and had to learn the hard way. That was fine but never had to opportunity to fly with really good captains for more than a few days at a time. Valid documents ability to travel. US. And overseas no restrictions for longer month or longer periods. No little ones to attend to or spouse. good work ethic Currently working. Cp private. Just recently back from recurrent sim training. And would appreciate. Pm. If you would be seriously interested.


Last edited by oldncold on Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:44 pm 
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Is English your first language?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:36 am 
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God I hope he writes his cover letters like that and sends them to all corporate flight departments.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:06 am 
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Johnny#5 wrote:
Is English your first language?


What about you!? Did you miss the "constructive tips" part of the subject? :roll:

Sorry oldncold, I cannot help in this department but I hope someone less condescending than the two above will step in.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:12 am 
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Tibor wrote:
God I hope he writes his cover letters like that and sends them to all corporate flight departments.


Good god! Was this a cover letter? What's with some people on this site?
Or maybe it's just the preprogrammed automatic response when your XL34800 Douchemaster Pro detects a sentence fragment...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 am 
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Nothing beats pissing in someone's Corn flakes before breakfast and ones morning coffee . I hope the majority of those flying in the corporate world are not as rude or narcissistic, I believe politeness and tact were a couple of the hallmarks of corporate flying.

Of course I have professional cover letter and resume. One does not ask to fly someone else's shiny expensive airplane for compensation without one.
I thought this is supposed to be a 'casual forum for exchanging information. not a doctorate examination in English. To those English guru's.you will notice I can spell with bigger words than I've edited original post. Still waiting for constructive tips.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:21 pm 
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I know of guys in similar situation who have made this transition. I would say you wil likely need to start in a charter operation or other larger organization before being fully able to transition to the corporate world. Depending on the region you are in, there are operators around through which you can break into the corporate jet world. Sunwest, London Air, Skyservice, among others. Something like a lear 45 or similar FO. I can't see a reason why you wouldn't be upgraded to left seat within a year subject to the operators needs obviously. I guess you just need to get face time with CP's and convince them you honestly want to be in that position.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:59 pm 
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Hi Old N

I have been operating in the corporate world for over 40 years. I am a training captain on what most would say is heavy corporate iron. Here are a few things I have learned along the way.

Resumes are far less important to Corporate operators than to the airlines. Pilot skills can be taught - people skills, not so much. We tend to hire folks we know and rarely hire pure co-pilots. We need individuals that display captain qualities and try to get you there as quick as possible. You need to show that you can operate in difficult areas and situations with minimal outside resources. The size of airplane you come from is far less important than the professionalism you display and how you present yourself. You will represent the company all the time, not just when you come to work. The passengers you handle may well have greater net worth's than some small countries.

It is very important that crews get along well. We can spend significant time on the road so it is really important you get along with your partner(s). After 2 weeks on the road even picking a restaurant may cause World War III if you do not respect each others wants and foibles.

Get to know the crews at an organization you may be interested in. New hires are often selected by a committee from the pilot group. You must be a good fit with the organization. Nobody wants to fly with a dick. Both you and them must trust that you will fit in.

Do not embellish or flash your previous experience. It may not be relevant to how they operate (when was the last time you ordered catering in Rome?). I have over 125 North Atlantic crossings and am not anywhere near the top end of our leader board so telling them about your last 200 mile extraviganza may not impress them much!

The other red flag from the corporation side is any indication you have an airline seat as your preferred career track. This job is radically different than the airlines, both in terms of operations and personal demeanor required of its crews. Corporate jobs vary from $hitty to fabulous. The thing most have in common is they pay for top of the line training. No CEO will be too thrilled to think he is being used as a training school.

I hope this helps a little. Good luck. For me it has been an outstanding ride.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:20 pm 
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To those that have taken the time to pm with intelligent responses sincere thank you I have reciprocated. To snow bear appreciate your detailing a process. Ps other than ghost peppers and cantaloupe. No issues with food. I will take all you posted and put together a positive plan to succeed.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:36 am 
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+1 to what snowbear said, dead on.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:54 am 
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A stumbling block may be in convincing an employer that you will be happy in an entry level position and pay scale given your experience and age. The management companies will hold you in that position through the use of training bonds, not job satisfaction. They will be your best bet for getting a foot in the door but advancing into a traditional flight department will be more an exercise in relationship building for you.

..and now the bad news..

Poor reputations, justified or not in corporate aviation are career killers. Corporate flying is very political and very petty. There are vast numbers who will seek to advance themselves by tearing others down. "We just want you to fit in" generally means we want you to do your job but not so well you make me look bad or become a challenge to my job security lest I will tear you down.

Frankly, if you can afford the pay cut, I would go somewhere like Porter or Sky Regional where advancement isn't tied to whose butt you kiss. Leave the corporate stuff to those who need the ego stroke or the jumping stone to an airline gig.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:18 am 
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Jasper, that couldn't be further from the truth in my experience as someone who does not aspire to the airline life. I think you would find while there are a few ego maniacs in the corporate world, I believe the vast majority are a bunch of self deprecating, fun and confident/competent people that to an outsider could be construed as egotistical. I guess that fact that most of us don't care for the airline life or encourage someone to downgrade their aspirations to go to some of the companies you suggest, doesn't stroke some airline captain egos enough? Discuss.


Last edited by cdnpilot77 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:31 am 
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I am not an airline Captain, I am a 35 year corporate manager who has seen a lot of good people shot down by the antics of others. There was a time that I promoted Corporate over Airline but time in the industry has changed that. All segments of aviation are in the race to the bottom but particularly corporate and CFO's are lapping it up. This is mostly caused by the management companies competition for business. The only areas left to cut in order to compete is salaries and pilots bear the brunt of that competition.

If you want a good dose of corporate aviators, go spend a week at the Teaneck Marriott and hang around the Concierge lounge. Then tell me we are a bunch of fun loving self-deprecating guys and gals.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:44 am 
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While I agree that your 35yrs trumps my time almost 10 fold, my experience so far hasn't jaded me on the corporate side of things. I guess there's still time. With some exceptions, I have had more challenges with airline pilots than corporate and yes, I am as self deprecating as anyone out there.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:01 pm 
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Jasper wrote:
...go spend a week at the Teaneck Marriott and hang around the Concierge lounge. Then tell me we are a bunch of fun loving self-deprecating guys and gals...


If THAT ^ doesn't say corporate pilot, I don't know what does!! :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:36 pm 
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My forte at a flight department was brief but probably enough to give some measured opinion. It wasn’t large by any stretch just one single turbo prop King Air with a couple of crews (2 pilot operation). There was Air Ambulance work and executive transportation. One thing of notice is as the pilot(s) you were responsible for everything from dispatch/flying/operations/catering/pax comfort/administration. Salary wasn’t bad in those times but out of town expense on trips wasn’t good. Charges for de-ice were always questioned, one time the corporate fuel card expired when we were out of town. I was told to put fuel charges on my personal card (Amex). I said no wasn’t doing that, why not I was asked. My credit limit wasn’t high, charges would exceed that. That wasn’t actually true as I had good credit and spending limit was much higher. Cash had to be wired for fuel and I took abuse for it, also at times hotel and meal claims were delayed, sometimes over three months but monies were owing on my Amex. I got an opportunity to go with the regulator and took it………….
If I could roll back 35 yrs., I would have tried a major, like AC but hiring those days was stagnant. Corporate with a big company probably better especially if international involved. There are two multi- nationals (resource and food) FD here in the Maritimes in NB. Both pay very well, very nice equipment, good schedule and lifestyle. Turnover amongst flight crews is non-existent at either as I understand it.
Guess if Corporate in your thing, employment at FD’s as above would probably as best as you could have, smaller departments may not be satisfactory. Those have a tendency to shut down poste haste though
Good luck in your endeavors



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:18 pm 
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I have a question for you corporate guys,

How does training work? I assume most companies send you
to FS or similar but is it one on one or do they fill a class and you
just have to hope your not paired up with Joe Blow from Mexico in the sim?

Would make SOP's sort of tough, no?



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:35 pm 
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floats4fun wrote:
I have a question for you corporate guys,

How does training work? I assume most companies send you
to FS or similar but is it one on one or do they fill a class and you
just have to hope your not paired up with Joe Blow from Mexico in the sim?

Would make SOP's sort of tough, no?


Yes, could make it tough. But most oerators will do their best to send 2 guys at a time to avoid exactly that.



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:45 pm 
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wallypilot wrote:
floats4fun wrote:
I have a question for you corporate guys,

How does training work? I assume most companies send you
to FS or similar but is it one on one or do they fill a class and you
just have to hope your not paired up with Joe Blow from Mexico in the sim?

Would make SOP's sort of tough, no?


Yes, could make it tough. But most oerators will do their best to send 2 guys at a time to avoid exactly that.


Funny enough in my citation initial course I was paired up with Joe Blow (not his real name) from Mexico. It was a challenge to say the least. I ended up sitting right seat for his Mexican check ride which I can only describe as startling. Lesson 2 of the Canadian PPL syllabus is more challenging than that check ride. I wish I was kidding. Not a single emergency or abnormal condition. A normal take off, a couple steep turns, an ILS, a visual and a VFR take off and landing and we were done. 0.6 start to finish...no ground.



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:06 pm 
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floats4fun wrote:
I have a question for you corporate guys,

How does training work? I assume most companies send you
to FS or similar but is it one on one or do they fill a class and you
just have to hope your not paired up with Joe Blow from Mexico in the sim?

Would make SOP's sort of tough, no?


FS and CAE are the bigger training providers. The class size and regularity of the class depends on demand for that airplane type. I have been in numerous classes that were one on one but the majority have been several crews.

Being paired with individuals from other countries isn't normally a problem. If either the student paired with an ESL student or instructor finds it isn't working, alterations can be made. Normally an instructor will be paired with a student for sim sessions.

SOP's in most corporate flight operations pretty closely mirror those of the training providers. It isn't an airline environment so subtle variations are tolerated.



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:09 pm 
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cdnpilot77 wrote:
wallypilot wrote:
floats4fun wrote:
I have a question for you corporate guys,

How does training work? I assume most companies send you
to FS or similar but is it one on one or do they fill a class and you
just have to hope your not paired up with Joe Blow from Mexico in the sim?

Would make SOP's sort of tough, no?


Yes, could make it tough. But most oerators will do their best to send 2 guys at a time to avoid exactly that.


Funny enough in my citation initial course I was paired up with Joe Blow (not his real name) from Mexico. It was a challenge to say the least. I ended up sitting right seat for his Mexican check ride which I can only describe as startling. Lesson 2 of the Canadian PPL syllabus is more challenging than that check ride. I wish I was kidding. Not a single emergency or abnormal condition. A normal take off, a couple steep turns, an ILS, a visual and a VFR take off and landing and we were done. 0.6 start to finish...no ground.


..and some countries such as those with POC's have done away with check rides preferring to train to standard instead. Go figure. :wink:



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:09 am 
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Jasper wrote:
I am not an airline Captain, I am a 35 year corporate manager who has seen a lot of good people shot down by the antics of others. There was a time that I promoted Corporate over Airline but time in the industry has changed that. All segments of aviation are in the race to the bottom but particularly corporate and CFO's are lapping it up. This is mostly caused by the management companies competition for business. The only areas left to cut in order to compete is salaries and pilots bear the brunt of that competition.

If you want a good dose of corporate aviators, go spend a week at the Teaneck Marriott and hang around the Concierge lounge. Then tell me we are a bunch of fun loving self-deprecating guys and gals.


Agreed, in corporate/ever increasing aircraft management world which i'd say makes the much bigger chunk, pay can be stagnant. Management companies are like the pimps and pilots the prostitutes. They take a cut of our salary from what they bill the owner and we never get to see the contracts. Few have been successful in separating their client from the management company and going it on there own but the ones that do have seemed to do very well ( but it could cost your job). Lifestyle can be better while at work depending on where you fly, however if you value predictable time off this doesn't mean shit.

In my opinion in the long run, pay and schedule wise, the airline word is the way to go. You ask a lot of the older guys in corporate and most will say they regret not getting in with the airlines. Mostly just tired of getting screwed around by the parasitic management companies.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:14 am 
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nottellin wrote:
Agreed, in corporate/ever increasing aircraft management world which i'd say makes the much bigger chunk, pay can be stagnant. Management companies are like the pimps and pilots the prostitutes. They take a cut of our salary from what they bill the owner and we never get to see the contracts. Few have been successful in separating their client from the management company and going it on there own but the ones that do have seemed to do very well ( but it could cost your job). Lifestyle can be better while at work depending on where you fly, however if you value predictable time off this doesn't mean shit.

In my opinion in the long run, pay and schedule wise, the airline word is the way to go. You ask a lot of the older guys in corporate and most will say they regret not getting in with the airlines. Mostly just tired of getting screwed around by the parasitic management companies.


Interesting, and something I have noticed as well.

Appears to me that we are also getting back into the era of "you're on the schedule as available, how about you come in and help wash the client's cars or work with other departments that are deficient".

Never ever experienced that in charter and have never ever heard of it in the airline world.


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Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:07 am 
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I had some clients who would walk in the door and do their check rides, then spend the rest of the week doing training. They were the best-prepared, most professional pilots I'd ever met.

How many of you could do that?

Anyway, corporate can be good or bad. Pure corporate, not so good, consistent early starts, long days and rare perks. Flying privately, better. Sometimes. I had a client who came to me for recurrent who had 25 years with the same owner. He made $400k a year as a Captain on a Challenger. Then the owner dropped dead and the a/c was sold. Unemployed. The owner's legacy was the recurrent.

Or you could be working for London Air...


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