Private Operators SMS

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wallypilot
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Private Operators SMS

#1 Post by wallypilot » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:56 pm

So I am in a 2 aircraft (1 jet, 1 turbo prop, 4 pilots, 2 bases) 604 operation looking at the SMS mandate for July 2016.

I am curious to see what other operators are doing to comply. We looked at the CBAA paper version, and figured it might be a solution, but if ever audited, TC would see we are not using it. Now looking at a full package deal from the likes of Baldwin, but big price tag.

What I want to know is what are others doing? Do I need to spend all that money on a service like Baldwin in order to be fully compliant?
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#2 Post by xsbank » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:29 am

Where do you go for training? They likely have a source.

If you don't have one now you will have to change/add procedures to your operation anyway. Why not the CBAA? Others will also have procedures...
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#3 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:52 am

fltsafety.com has a package that is reasonably priced
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#4 Post by ajet32 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:12 pm

If you're a CBAA member consider the ISBAO package. The course and the SMS are less than many providers charge to set up a program,. You then have one for your company and you will know how to use it as well.
Having taken it a few years back I found it quite useful and have used some portions many times since.

The CBAA one is supposed to give you access to a national data base on your type/s of aircraft. This will keep the regulator happy come audit time.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#5 Post by Prodriver » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:29 pm

It is a sad waste of time and resources, my CP indicated we are going with Flightpln.com SMS, as it is cheap. They don't have to like it you just have to have it.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#6 Post by wallypilot » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:18 am

The CBAA one is 100% paper based and not workable for our small flight department with airplanes at two separate bases. I'm not an SMS expert and don't have time or resources to develop our own program. The CBAA national database is just a database, it's not an SMS unto itself. It is one portion, and comes with an extra yearly fee (albeit small) in addition to purchasing the purchasing the SMS package.

I don't have time to go on courses, too busy flying. I need a complete package.

I will check out the fltplan.com service.

FWIW, I also discovered Universal Weather provides a package that is a little more affordable than Baldwin.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#7 Post by Heliian » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:24 pm

If you think you don't have time to set it up yourself then you are going to pay a huge premium for someone else's package of b.s.. The "funny" thing is that TC doesn't even know what is required half the time. Really, all you have to do is make up a bunch of documents with the keywords: sms, risk management, open accountability, non punitive reporting, safety audit and risk matrix. Make it sound like you are being proactive and self-whatevering, once the paper is in place you really don't have to do much physically. SMS is a joke, waste of time, b.s. system that puts the onus on you rather than the regulating authority. It has done nothing but save the government money on oversight, it's not about safety.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#8 Post by Prodriver » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:28 pm

Heliian wrote:If you think you don't have time to set it up yourself then you are going to pay a huge premium for someone else's package of b.s.. The "funny" thing is that TC doesn't even know what is required half the time. Really, all you have to do is make up a bunch of documents with the keywords: sms, risk management, open accountability, non punitive reporting, safety audit and risk matrix. Make it sound like you are being proactive and self-whatevering, once the paper is in place you really don't have to do much physically. SMS is a joke, waste of time, b.s. system that puts the onus on you rather than the regulating authority. It has done nothing but save the government money on oversight, it's not about safety.
I agree we really need to push back on this garbage, hell they might as well give us our red Books now!
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#9 Post by wallypilot » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:03 pm

Heliian wrote:If you think you don't have time to set it up yourself then you are going to pay a huge premium for someone else's package of b.s.. The "funny" thing is that TC doesn't even know what is required half the time. Really, all you have to do is make up a bunch of documents with the keywords: sms, risk management, open accountability, non punitive reporting, safety audit and risk matrix. Make it sound like you are being proactive and self-whatevering, once the paper is in place you really don't have to do much physically. SMS is a joke, waste of time, b.s. system that puts the onus on you rather than the regulating authority. It has done nothing but save the government money on oversight, it's not about safety.
Why do insurance companies give discounts for operator with SMS in place then? Asking honestly, because until recently I thought it was a lad of crap as well...at least for small operations. I am coming around a bit though,
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#10 Post by Prodriver » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:05 pm

I don't see a discount and don't drink from the Kool-aid, you are right it is a load and a waste of time. We fly on a rigged table, if you make a mistake in the system you will get a Cadors, that process allows for TC to follow up, so I don't know what they are looking for that is not already covered by the current surveillance system?
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#11 Post by wallypilot » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:59 am

Prodriver wrote:I don't see a discount and don't drink from the Kool-aid, you are right it is a load and a waste of time. We fly on a rigged table, if you make a mistake in the system you will get a Cadors, that process allows for TC to follow up, so I don't know what they are looking for that is not already covered by the current surveillance system?
Agreed. TC's just off loading liability. but regardless, it will be mandated, so have to do something. I'm not into sending paper SR's and FRAT's by scan and email between two distant bases, so I need a web based system.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#12 Post by Heliian » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:28 am

wallypilot wrote:I'm not into sending paper SR's and FRAT's by scan and email between two distant bases, so I need a web based system.
Well then, if that's what you think you need then you're going to pay through the nose. You really need to sit down with someone and come up with your needs/wants, it won't be free but a little consultation may help you. Your 2 ship 604 op doesn't need the rigamarole that a big 705 has, in fact the 705 doesn't need a big production either.

SMS shouldn't be a money grab.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#13 Post by Prodriver » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:53 pm

I really hope we can lobby this crap out with the new Liberal goverment. Hopefully the new Transport minister will listen....
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#14 Post by StandingBy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:09 pm

If you are a small operator it's quite easy to build your own. Just look at TCs advisory circular and follow the recipe. The key is to match it to the size and complexity of your outfit. Buying one might be a waste of $$.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#15 Post by Prodriver » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:11 pm

A couple 604 guys I know are not going to bother with it as it is a waste of time and effort, just more silly red tape from a bureaucracy out of control. It is not scalable and even if it was, what is the point of an owner pilot filling out N/A to everything? It is meant for a buisiness with employee's not owner flown operations.
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Last edited by Prodriver on Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#16 Post by oldncold » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:19 am

Hey there things like that might drive a few sales of the new piper. M600 now that it's got some decent range. Payload flexibilty unlike the meridian same goes for the Tbm. Less than 6 seats +crew = less paper work. And if the mission is 600nm. Each way. A jet will only be 30 min faster. Cause we all have to slow down in terminal airspace.
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Re: Private Operators SMS

#17 Post by wallypilot » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:23 am

Prodriver wrote:A couple 604 guys I know are not going to bother with it as it is a waste of time and effort, just more silly red tape from a bureaucracy out of control. It is not scalable and even if it was what is the point of an owner pilot filling out N/A to everything? It is meant for a buisiness with employee's not owner flown operations.
Ya, you're absolutely right. In any case, i have built my own using google forms to create an online hazard reprting system. its free and reduces paper. My SMS manual is about 6 pages, plus the ERP, which we already had anyways.
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