VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

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VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#1 Post by bizjets101 » Thu May 21, 2015 4:10 am

May 20 2015

North West of Barranquilla, Colombia - aircraft on a illegal flight - had departed Venezuela - believed headed for Central America - video shows Starboard Engine on fire - as aircraft descends and breaks up on contact with the sea. One body recovered - and cocaine packages.

VIDEO posted on Youtube.

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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#2 Post by ahramin » Thu May 21, 2015 9:52 am

So this plane was shot down? How? Under what legal justification?
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#3 Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 21, 2015 10:17 am

The Columbians likely have Rules of Engagements. In those rules, there are likely criteria to meet in order to declare an aircraft "hostile" and an ID authority associated with it. We have similar concepts in Canada....
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#4 Post by ahramin » Thu May 21, 2015 10:29 am

AuxBatOn wrote:We have similar concepts in Canada....
Smells of summary execution to me. Similar concepts perhaps, but I hope that our ROE would never permit the downing of a civilian aircraft whose only hostile act is being in airspace that they aren't allowed to be in.

Anyone know if this aircraft was intercepted? Or what weapon was used against it?
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#5 Post by looproll » Thu May 21, 2015 10:31 am

JUDGE - JURY - EXECUTIONER



there is a big difference between a hostile airplane and what they've been doing in S.A. to drug running aircraft - pretty scary if you ask me
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#6 Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 21, 2015 11:23 am

ahramin wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:We have similar concepts in Canada....
Smells of summary execution to me. Similar concepts perhaps, but I hope that our ROE would never permit the downing of a civilian aircraft whose only hostile act is being in airspace that they aren't allowed to be in.

Anyone know if this aircraft was intercepted? Or what weapon was used against it?
We have different problems than we do. We do not have cartels running drugs to run their innocent-killing organizations. Perhaps our ROEs would be similar if it was the case.

The video also doesn't show what was done before the shootdown (intercept, warnings, etc). If you intercept an aircraft, it doesn't comply to instructions, keeps doing its thing, what do you expect to happen??
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#7 Post by ahramin » Thu May 21, 2015 12:35 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:The video also doesn't show what was done before the shootdown (intercept, warnings, etc)
That's what I'm asking.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#8 Post by iflyforpie » Thu May 21, 2015 12:38 pm

What I would expect to happen is for the aircraft's progress to be monitored to ensure it doesn't become a threat to civilians and dealt with accordingly when it inevitably lands. This is like one of those high speed chases in the USA where dozens of lives are lost and millions of dollars of collateral damage is done when they could have just picked the guy up at the 7-11 that afternoon after breaking it off.

Plus, how did this save any of the 'innocents' that these cartels kill? Do you think that because one plane was shot down that they will stop? Planes and pilots are 100% disposable to any drug cartel... I heard somewhere that only one in ten has to make it through without crashing or getting seized for them to make a profit.

If it was a warplane carrying weapons that would effectively threaten air or ground targets.. or if it was actively using weapons of lower lethality regardless of aircraft type... ... or if its reckless operation directly threatened civilians and there was a chance to reduce or eliminate that risk then yeah... take it out. Otherwise... monitor it and leave it alone.. just like that Convair that landed in Quebec or wherever all of those years ago.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =54&t=7801
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#9 Post by Heliian » Thu May 21, 2015 5:58 pm

Same discussion every time they shoot one down. They have pretty strict policies now to prevent innocent deaths. They give these guys a chance to land and be arrested but they don't and they know the outcome. This is cutting the drug supply off at the base and is highly effective.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#10 Post by looproll » Thu May 21, 2015 7:13 pm

and there should be a discussion because these guys usually aren't doing this for the thrills and the money, they are coerced into it, their families threatened, lives threatened, they have no choice. Should they be sacrificed? You better hope you never end up in that situation. Land and get arrested? Your family will be executed immediately.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#11 Post by ahramin » Thu May 21, 2015 10:23 pm

Heliian wrote:This is cutting the drug supply off at the base and is highly effective.
Yeah, there's a real shortage of cocaine out there. I just can't think of where that might be.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#12 Post by looproll » Fri May 22, 2015 4:33 am

Heliian wrote:Same discussion every time they shoot one down. They have pretty strict policies now to prevent innocent deaths. They give these guys a chance to land and be arrested but they don't and they know the outcome. This is cutting the drug supply off at the base and is highly effective.
that's a pretty naive statement


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Peru_shootdown
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#13 Post by Heliian » Fri May 22, 2015 4:52 am

Heliian wrote:They have pretty strict policies now to prevent innocent deaths
emphasis on NOW. Everyone knows of the missionary plane they accidentally shot down.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#14 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri May 22, 2015 5:50 am

The Chicago convention

https://www.mcgill.ca/files/iasl/ASPL63 ... ention.pdf

and specifically Article 3Bis, which was last amended at ICAO right here in Montreal


https://www.mcgill.ca/iasl/files/iasl/montreal1984.pdf
HAVING NOTED that in keeping with elementary considerations of humanity the safety and the lives of persons on board civil aircraft must be assured,
HAVING NOTED that in the Convention on International Civil Aviation done at Chicago on the seventh day of December 1944 the contracting States
- recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory,
- undertake, when issuing regulations for their state aircraft, that they will have due regard for the safety of navigation of civil aircraft, and
- agree not to use civil aviation for any purpose inconsistent with the aims of the Convention,
HAVING NOTED the resolve of the contracting States to take appropriate measures designed to prevent the violation of other States' airspace and the use of civil aviation for purposes inconsistent with the aims of the Convention and to enhance further the safety of
international civil aviation,
HAVING NOTED the general desire of contracting States to reaffirm the principle of non-use of weapons against civil aircraft in flight,
1. DECIDES that it is desirable therefore to amend the Convention on International Civil Aviation done at Chicago on the seventh day of December 1944,
2. APPROVES, in accordance with the provision of Article 94(a) of the Convention aforesaid, the following proposed amendment to the said Convention:
Insert, after Article 3, a new Article 3 bis:
"Article 3 bis
(a) The contracting States recognize that every State must refrain from resorting to the use of weapons against civil aircraft in flight and that, in case of interception, the lives of persons on board and the safety of aircraft must not be endangered. This provision
shall not be interpreted as modifying in any way the rights and obligations of States set forth in the Charter of the United Nations.
(b) The contracting States recognize that every State, in the exercise of its sovereignty, is entitled to require the landing at some designated airport of a civil aircraft flying above its territory without authority or if there are reasonable grounds to conclude that it is being used for any purpose inconsistent with the aims of this Convention; it may also give such aircraft any other instructions to put an end to such violations. For this purpose, the contracting States may resort to any appropriate means consistent with relevant rules of international law, including the relevant provisions of this Convention, specifically paragraph (a) of this Article. Each contracting State agrees to publish its regulations in force regarding the interception of civil aircraft.
(c) Every civil aircraft shall comply with an order given in conformity with paragraph
(b) of this Article. To this end each contracting State shall establish all necessary provisions in its national laws or regulations to make such compliance mandatory for any civil aircraft registered in that State or operated by an operator who has his principal
place of business or permanent residence in that State. Each contracting State shall make any violation of such applicable laws or regulations punishable by severe penalties and shall submit the case to its competent authorities in accordance with its laws or
regulations.
(d) Each contracting State shall take appropriate measures to prohibit the deliberate use of any civil aircraft registered in that State or operated by an operator who has his principal place of business or permanent residence in that State for any purpose
inconsistent with the aims of this Convention. This provision shall not affect paragraph
(a) or derogate from paragraphs (b) and (c) of this Article.",
3. SPECIFIES, pursuant to the provision of the said Article 94(a) of the said Convention, one hundred and two as the number of contracting States upon whose ratification the proposed amendment aforesaid shall come into force, and
4. RESOLVES that the Secretary General of the International Civil Aviation Organization draw up a Protocol, in the English, French, Russian and Spanish languages, each of which shall be of equal authenticity, embodying the proposed amendment abovementioned
and the matter hereinafter appearing:
(a) The Protocol shall be signed by the President of the Assembly and its Secretary General.
(b) The Protocol shall be open to ratification by any State which has ratified or adhered to the said Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(c) The instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the International Civil Aviation Organization.
(d) The Protocol shall come into force in respect of the States which have ratified it on the date on which the one hundred and second instrument of ratification is so deposited.
(e) The Secretary General shall immediately notify all contracting States of the date of deposit of each ratification of the Protocol.
(f) The Secretary General shall notify all States parties to the said Convention of the date on which the Protocol comes into force.
(g) With respect to any contracting State ratifying the Protocol after the date aforesaid, the Protocol shall come into force upon deposit of its instrument of ratification with the International Civil Aviation Organization.
CONSEQUENTLY, pursuant to the aforesaid action of the Assembly, This Protocol has been drawn up by the Secretary General of the Organization.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the President and the Secretary General of the aforesaid Twenty-fifth Session (Extraordinary) of the Assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organization, being authorized thereto by the Assembly, sign this Protocol.

DONE at Montreal on the 10th day of May of the year one thousand nine hundred and eighty-four, in a single document in the English, French, Russian and Spanish languages, each text being equally authentic. This Protocol shall remain deposited in the archives of the International Civil Aviation Organization, and certified copies thereof shall be transmitted by the Secretary General of the Organization to all States parties to the Convention on International Civil Aviation done at Chicago on the seventh day of December 1944.

Assad Kotaite Yves Lambert
President of the 25th Session Secretary General
(Extraordinary) of the Assembly
Suspected drug runners may be misidentified as such. Even when they are positively identified:
Drug running aircraft may have undercover agents on board.
Drug running aircraft may have hostages on board.
Drug running aircraft may be operated by unwilling crews operating under duress.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#15 Post by AuxBatOn » Fri May 22, 2015 7:11 am

Gilles,

Scenario for you... An airliner goes off flight plan, stops talking. We lauch a couple of fighters to intercept, pilots tries to establish compliance and the plane keeps doing its thing. At some point, the plane starts heading towards NYC. Airplane is still not talking and is still off flightplan. The plane starts a descent about 50 NM from NYC and heads towards downtown Manhatan. What should we do?
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#16 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri May 22, 2015 7:47 am

That scenario never occurred did it, other than in fighter pilots wet dreams to have their Tom Cruise moment......

However, the opposite occurred many many times, where innocent civilian airliners were shot down by fighters and military missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... Flight_402

And this list only mentions "airliners", not other civilian aircraft.

The missionary flight became famous because it contained "US Missionaries". Had the pilot been a Peruvian bush pilot, the crash site would have never been located and the event never publicized.

http://www.wola.org/commentary/latin_am ... r_on_drugs
Last October, the armed forces in Venezuela claimed to have shot down two light aircraft, the first since a law authorizing shootdowns passed in May 2012. It is unclear what became of the crew members or any drugs that might have been aboard
I knew many years ago about an aircraft that was shot down by a Latin American Air Force, where the intercepted pilot, after being hit by gunfire, crash landed his light twin on a beach, survived, no drugs were found by the local authorities, and the affair was covered up and never made the news.....

Fighter aircraft are made for national defense and war. Not for police work

A Challenger jet was shot down by Venezuela's Air Force last January. It's wreckage was not found in Venezuelan waters but 7 miles off the coast of Aruba, in Dutch territorial waters. Three bodies were found with the wreckage, along with cocaine. I have not seen any article mention the identity of the three bodies......
Are we to begin using the term "collateral damage" in police actions too ?
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#17 Post by Heliian » Fri May 22, 2015 7:49 am

AuxBatOn wrote:What should we do?
Same thing that happened before, someone will make a life altering decision, sacrificing the few for the many and attempts to cover it up will be made. Some believe that there was another jet on 9/11 that was shot down before it's target.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#18 Post by AuxBatOn » Fri May 22, 2015 9:42 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:That scenario never occurred did it, other than in fighter pilots wet dreams to have their Tom Cruise moment......

Fighter aircraft are made for national defense and war. Not for police work

Are we to begin using the term "collateral damage" in police actions too ?
1- If you think it's a fighter pilot's wet dream to shoot an airliner down, think again. It is probably their worst nightmare (it certainly is mine)

2- Fighter aircraft were designed for war and national defense. Their capabilities though enable them to do more. Counter-Drug is one of the missions we do that you would consider "police work". Remember the shooting in New Bruinswick last year? Yup, we were there too. Police work? You bet. We helped.

3- Collateral damage should be in anybody's mind when legally employing force.

Just curious how much experience you have employing force for National Defense?
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#19 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri May 22, 2015 5:11 pm

There have been hundreds of highjacks, most of which ended without any bloodshed. The hijacker want to go to X or demands Y and they most often end up being caught.

How could a fighter aircraft pilot, or ground control, know that the intentions of a hijacker are to crash the aircraft into a building with enough certainty to be able to make the decision to shoot it down first and kill every one on board ? How could you be vindicated in the decision after the fact, while looking at the pictures of the bloated bodies floating in the water ? You see what the Captain of the USS Vincennes did in his certainty ? Or the Russians with Korean Air and Malaysian ?

There is a one in a billion possibility of such a thing ever occurring.

However, the possibility of shooting down an innocent airliner with all people on board is real. It has occured many times, it will happen again.

As for your question:
Just curious how much experience you have employing force for National Defense?
Stop insulting people's intelligence please.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#20 Post by AuxBatOn » Fri May 22, 2015 5:25 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: How could a fighter aircraft pilot, or ground control, know the intentions of a hijacker are to crash the aircraft into a building with enough certainty to be able to make the decision to shoot it down first and kill every one on board ?
There is a one in a billion possibility of such a thing ever occurring.
I have had my share of scrambles on airliners. All of them ended up being pilots forgetting to talk for a couple of hours or rowdy pax.

The pilot doesn't make the call, neither does ground control. The pilot is merely the eyes and arms of the government. It sees things, reports it through ground control who passes it up the chain of command, eventually to the GoC. With the information the decision makers have, they pass different missions, depending on the compliance of the target of interest. Each different type of mission has a level of authority associated with it and I can tell you that unless we are at war, no pilot or ground controller will ever have the authority to shootdown an aircraft.

I can only assume (with fairly good certainty) that similar processes are in place in Columbia. The threat (perceived or real) to the people is just different than ours.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#21 Post by ahramin » Fri May 22, 2015 10:50 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:The pilot is merely the eyes and arms of the government. It sees things, reports it through ground control who passes it up the chain of command, eventually to the GoC. With the information the decision makers have, they pass different missions, depending on the compliance of the target of interest.
I was glad to see in this case that someone in the chain of command didn't think it was a stellar idea to drop bombs on what could easily have been a bunch of fishermen in an invaded country that are smart enough to run away from the death machines overhead. Sure was disappointing for the pilot though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAncrBgl ... C#t=33m14s

Could easily have been another one of these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0#t=4m34s

Yes, murder is much more fun when you can say you were just following orders, but the point of the discussion is not to pick on the macho jet jockey who simply takes pleasure in his or her work. The point is the decision makers who don't care enough about the externalities of their "war on drugs", "war on terror", or whatever the flavour of the decade is. Was a load of cocaine worth the life of the pilot carrying it? Just because it's easy and you can get away with it, should governments really be making the decision to shoot down defenseless aircraft? Isn't it better to track a suspected drug aircraft, or worst case let it go if it can't be tracked, rather than taking the chance or murdering innocents? We frown on it when Russia or North Korea does it, so why can't we hold ourselves to the same standard?

As for the Chicago Convention Gilles, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for governments around the world to stop doing things simply because they are illegal. Nixon said it best:

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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#22 Post by Dh8Classic » Wed May 27, 2015 4:35 pm

Ridiculous comment. Strike one.
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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#23 Post by bizjets101 » Sat May 30, 2015 5:43 am

Here is the story of the pilot at the controls of 9H-FED Global Express that departed illegally from Venezuela in 2012 with 1 3/4 tonnes of cocaine on board.

Click Here.

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Re: VIDEO Colombian Govt down unknown Hawker 800

#24 Post by linecrew » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:35 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Just curious how much experience you have employing force for National Defense?
Stop insulting people's intelligence please.
Not to call out the obvious, but, didn't you just do the very same thing with this comment?
other than in fighter pilots wet dreams to have their Tom Cruise moment.....
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