AVCANADA

It is currently Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:49 am

All times are UTC-07:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:53 am 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
Looks like a Hughes/Schweitzer 300. Some kind of emergency that was in effect for long enough for the emergency services to arrive at the time of the accident.

It looks like the blades weren't turning at impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-cR-hkkB0Q


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:57 pm 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
Seeing the short path of disturbed soil just before the flipped over wreck, one might infer that the helicopter hit hard, bounced and flipped over. Seeing the location of the crash relative to the runway, one could infer that the pilot was trying to "make it" to the runway. 300's autorotate nicely, but not far, and leave very little to stretch the glide with. In an auto, best plan to land just over your toes.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:27 pm 
Offline
Top Poster
Top Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 18670
The H300 is a really nice little helicopter and the basic design has not changed for decades, I got my helicopter license on one in 1964 so both of us have been around for a long time. :smt040

_________________
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:29 pm 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:00 am
Posts: 75
Who's Troy Gentry? Buffalo used car dealer? Never heard of him. Big guy in cncpc's world?


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:02 pm 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Posts: 276
Location: The Okanagan
Cowboy singer. Quite popular in the US of A, I understand.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:51 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
Cat Driver wrote:
The H300 is a really nice little helicopter and the basic design has not changed for decades, I got my helicopter license on one in 1964 so both of us have been around for a long time. :smt040


Yes, excellent helicopter. At one time the US Army had over 1 million flight training hours in them without a fatality. I did most of my heli training in them at Carlsbad Airport down by Oceanside, CA.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:52 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
Schooner69A wrote:
Cowboy singer. Quite popular in the US of A, I understand.


Particularly folks with the name Hockaloogie.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:57 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
PilotDAR wrote:
Seeing the short path of disturbed soil just before the flipped over wreck, one might infer that the helicopter hit hard, bounced and flipped over. Seeing the location of the crash relative to the runway, one could infer that the pilot was trying to "make it" to the runway. 300's autorotate nicely, but not far, and leave very little to stretch the glide with. In an auto, best plan to land just over your toes.


Yes, I agree with the hit and flip scenario. If he was in an auto, though, no need to stretch it. He could have set it down anywhere in that sand. From the blades, he either pulled the collective all the way up too soon in the auto, or the transmission seized.

He had called in some emergency.

No, they don't glide much in the auto.

Adding:

This from something called TMZ...

The helicopter crash that killed country singer Troy Gentry is now under NTSB investigation, and we're told a central question will be whether the pilot should have attempted a landing instead of hovering with mechanical problems and waiting for emergency assistance.
Helicopter pilots at and around the Flying W Airport in Medford, New Jersey tell TMZ ... the pilot had options, though none were great.

I can't imagine a type of mechanical problem where you'd stay in the air waiting for CFR.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:42 am 
Offline
Top Poster
Top Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 18670
Quote:
Yes, excellent helicopter. At one time the US Army had over 1 million flight training hours in them without a fatality. I did most of my heli training in them at Carlsbad Airport down by Oceanside, CA.


I got my helicopter license in one in Detroit from a U.S. military pilot who was an awesome teacher.

When I had my helicopter flight school I bought a R22 because of the price difference.

Regretted the decision because the H300 would have been a far better choice, but I guess you get what you pay for.


_________________
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:33 am 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 pm
Posts: 276
Hockaloogie wrote:
Who's Troy Gentry? Buffalo used car dealer? Never heard of him. Big guy in cncpc's world?


He was half of the country duo Montgomery Gentry. Eddie Montgomery I would say was the lead singer of the 2 of them. They were pretty popular in country music 15 years ago, not as big the last little while. My Town was their biggest hit back in the early 2000's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9b3QqTOtY



Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:03 pm 
Offline
Rank 0
Rank 0

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:00 pm
Posts: 1
cncpc wrote:

I can't imagine a type of mechanical problem where you'd stay in the air waiting for CFR.



Maybe a tail rotor failure of some kind.



Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:46 am 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:00 am
Posts: 75
DanJ wrote:
Hockaloogie wrote:
He was half of the country duo Montgomery Gentry. Eddie Montgomery I would say was the lead singer of the 2 of them. They were pretty popular in country music 15 years ago, not as big the last little while. My Town was their biggest hit back in the early 2000's.
Thanks. Some reports suggested he was a "star".



Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:39 am 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
NTSB says the issue was that the pilot was having difficulty controlling the RPM.

I would think that is only a difficulty in the air in the sense of maintaining sufficient rotor rpm.

For the more expert here, possible deteriorating condition in the transmission with full seizure when the throttle is rolled off? Or even without that?

It does seem the blades weren't rotating in the impact sequence.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:48 pm 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
Perhaps a problem with the clutch, belts started to slip. No foolin nor waiting with that though, roll the throttle closed, and auto down!


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:32 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm
Posts: 1064
Something in the driveline could have seized, leading to a situation where the engine is coupled and difficult to control. A governor failure or engine malfunction could also cause fluctuations. They'll have a good idea if he had time to communicate.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:09 am 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
Quote:
A governor failure or engine malfunction could also cause fluctuations.


Governor in an SW300?

An engine malfunction in an SW300 would normally result in a decoupling and stop, so autorotation. There is no flywheel effect acting on the engine, so unlike a propeller application of the engine, if it runs rough, nothing will hold spinning inertia of the helicopter engine if it falters.



Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:42 am 
Offline
Rank 0
Rank 0

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Posts: 12
From the NTSB preliminary report:

NTSB: Pilot reported throttle trouble before copter crash that killed country star Troy Gentry

NTSB Identification: ERA17FA317
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, September 08, 2017 in Medford, NJ
Aircraft: SCHWEIZER 269C, registration: N204HF
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On September 8, 2017, about 1300 eastern daylight time, a Schweizer 269C-1 helicopter, N204HF, operated by Helicopter Flight Services, was substantially damaged during collision with terrain while performing a forced landing to Runway 01 at Flying W Airport (N14), Medford, New Jersey. The commercial pilot and passenger were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the personal flight which was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

According to the chief flight instructor for the operator, the purpose of the flight was to provide an orientation/pleasure flight to the passenger who was scheduled to perform in a concert on the airport later that evening.

Several minutes after takeoff, the pilot reported over the airport UNICOM frequency that he was unable to control engine rpm with throttle inputs. He reported he could "roll" the twist-grip, but that there was no corresponding change in engine rpm when he did so.

The company flight instructor and another certificated helicopter flight instructor were monitoring the frequency and engaged the pilot in conversation about potential courses of action to affect the subsequent landing. Options discussed included a shallow approach to a run-on landing, or a power-off, autorotational descent to landing. The pilot elected to stop the engine and perform an autorotation, which was a familiar procedure he had performed numerous times in the past. Prior to entering the autorotation, the pilot was advised to initiate the maneuver over the runway.

The company flight instructor reported that the helicopter entered the autorotation about 950 ft above ground level, and that the helicopter was quiet during its descent "because the engine was off." During the descent, the rotor rpm decayed to the point where the instructor could see the individual rotor blades. The helicopter descended from view prior to reaching the runway threshold and the sounds of impact were heard. Both instructors reported that a high-pitched "whine" could be heard from the helicopter during the latter portion of the descent.

A video forwarded by local police showed the helicopter south of the runway as it entered what appeared to be a descent profile consistent with an autorotation. Toward the end of the video, the descent profile became more vertical and the rate of descent increased before the helicopter descended out of view. No sound could be heard from the helicopter.

The pilot held commercial and instructor pilot certificates, each with ratings for rotorcraft-helicopter and instrument helicopter. His most recent Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) second-class medical certificate was issued April 12, 2017.

Excerpts of the pilot's logbook revealed he had logged 480.9 total hours of flight experience. It was estimated that he had accrued over 300 total hours of flight experience in the accident helicopter make and model. The last entry logged was for 1.2 hours in the accident helicopter on the day of the accident.

The company training records indicated the pilot had received the training required by the operator for employment as a flight instructor, and his last airman competency check was completed satisfactorily on April 19, 2017 in the accident helicopter.

According to FAA records, the helicopter was manufactured in 2000 and had accrued approximately 7,900 total aircraft hours. Its most recent 100-hour inspection was completed August 17, 2017 at 7,884 total aircraft hours.

At 1254, the weather recorded at South Jersey Regional Airport (VAY), 2 miles west of N14, included clear skies and wind from 260° at 13 knots gusting to 18 knots. The temperature was 21°C, and the dew point was 9°C. The altimeter setting was 30.13 inches of mercury. Airmen's Meteorological Information (AIRMET) Sierra for instrument meteorological conditions and mountain obscurations was in effect for the area surrounding the accident site at the time of the accident.

The wreckage was examined at the accident site, and all major components were accounted for at the scene. The initial ground scar was about 10 ft prior to the main wreckage, which was about 220 ft prior to the threshold of runway 01 and aligned with the runway.

The cockpit was significantly deformed by impact damage, and the tailboom was separated at the fuselage. The engine and main transmission remained mounted in the airframe, and all main rotor blades were secured in their respective grips, which remained attached to the main rotor head and mast. The pitch-change link for the yellow rotor blade was fractured, with fracture signatures consistent with overstress. Each of the three blades was bent significantly at its respective blade root. The blades showed little to no damage along their respective spans toward the blade tips, which was consistent with low rotor rpm at ground contact.

Flight control continuity was established from the individual flight controls, through breaks, to the main rotor head and tail rotor. Drivetrain continuity was also established to the main and tail rotors.

The engine was rotated by hand at the cooling fan, and continuity was confirmed from the powertrain through the valvetrain, to the accessory section. Compression was confirmed on all cylinders using the thumb method. The magnetos were removed, actuated with a drill, and spark was produced at all terminal leads. Borescope examination of each cylinder revealed signatures consistent with normal wear, with no anomalies noted.

The carburetor was separated from the engine, displayed impact damage, and was found near the initial ground scar. The throttle and mixture arms were actuated by hand and moved smoothly through their respective ranges. The filter screen was removed, and was absent of debris. The carburetor contained fuel which appeared absent of water and debris.

The collective control and jackshaft assembly as well as the associated throttle cable, push-pull tube, and bellcrank assemblies were retained for further examination at the NTSB Materials Laboratory.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 3517&key=1



Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:52 am 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
From the report, we understand that the pilot was unable to control the engine to his satisfaction. It seems he had enough engine power available to have time to communicate to diagnose, and fly toward the airport - that's great. Thereafter it would seem he entered an autorotation, also right. Either he was flying toward the runway, with the intention of autoing onto it, and the engine stopped before he got within auto range, or he chose to enter auto too early to make the runway. The site of the crash looked adequate for a decent auto landing, but he let the rotor RPM decay.

So throttle issues aside, the crash seems more a result of a poorly flown autorotation.



Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:16 am 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm
Posts: 1064
PilotDAR wrote:
Quote:
A governor failure or engine malfunction could also cause fluctuations.


Governor in an SW300?

An engine malfunction in an SW300 would normally result in a decoupling and stop, so autorotation. There is no flywheel effect acting on the engine, so unlike a propeller application of the engine, if it runs rough, nothing will hold spinning inertia of the helicopter engine if it falters.


Correlator then. The part that controls fuel flow with collective input. I don't know the accident ship, there are quite a few variants including ones with an actual governor and fuel injected.

Malfunction would include stuck throttle.



Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:14 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
PilotDAR wrote:
Quote:
A governor failure or engine malfunction could also cause fluctuations.


Governor in an SW300?

An engine malfunction in an SW300 would normally result in a decoupling and stop, so autorotation. There is no flywheel effect acting on the engine, so unlike a propeller application of the engine, if it runs rough, nothing will hold spinning inertia of the helicopter engine if it falters.


Yes, I've seen them and flown one with one installed. Aftermarket.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:15 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
Heliian wrote:
Something in the driveline could have seized, leading to a situation where the engine is coupled and difficult to control. A governor failure or engine malfunction could also cause fluctuations. They'll have a good idea if he had time to communicate.


It was something where he had reason to believe that he needed emergency vehicles to try the touchdown.

Some very good insights above.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:46 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
It's not clear from the report whether there was continuity of rotation through to the mast.

I can't remember how you shut down a 300. I expect its to pull the mixture. He'd have to do that if rolling the throttle had no effect.

He may have "stopped" the engine and started the auto when the rotor rpm dropped out of the green. It might have been impossible to get it back once that happened. Especially with no power.

I don't think I'd have been at 950 feet when that was happening. If you can be at 950, you can be at 5 feet hovering, or no?

Good excerpt here on low rotor rpm from AOPA...

Quote:
Of all helicopters, light, piston-engine types get into low-rotor rpm during normal flight most often. Most turbine helicopters have fuel governing systems that normally do a good job of maintaining engine and rotor rpm, which reduces the chance of rotor rpm slipping below the normal level. If the pilot of a light, piston-engine helicopter lets low-rotor rpm develop, merely opening the throttle may not produce enough engine power to overcome the rapidly rising drag on the rotor blades. If the helicopter is close to the ground, lowering the collective may be the last thing on a pilot's mind, but simultaneously lowering the collective and applying full throttle is the only sure way to recover the lost rotor rpm.

If the helicopter is hovering relatively close to a surface not suitable for landing, a pilot can sometimes recover lost rotor rpm by "milking" the collective. The pilot maintains full throttle and repeatedly lowers the collective using small movements. This reduces the angle of attack of the rotor blades while preventing the helicopter from hitting the surface. Milking the collective can be a scary business, but you have no alternative, and this can often be enough to persuade the rotor rpm to return to the green arc.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:38 pm 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
Quote:
Yes, I've seen them and flown one with one installed. Aftermarket.


Ah, okay. Each of the two I learned in were entirely manual, and fuel injected. The engine power you got was what you controlled with the throttle - no help. When I went on to MD500's power management became much more simple.

Managing rotor RPM is the pilot's responsibility.



Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:40 pm 
Offline
Rank (9)
Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 1079
PilotDAR wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I've seen them and flown one with one installed. Aftermarket.


Ah, okay. Each of the two I learned in were entirely manual, and fuel injected. The engine power you got was what you controlled with the throttle - no help. When I went on to MD500's power management became much more simple.

Managing rotor RPM is the pilot's responsibility.


I've found out they aren't aftermarket. They have a Schweitzer part number and are an option, either from the factory or added later. There is also an RPM limiter thingie to prevent overspeed, I think mainly on the start.

The throttle correlation was good on the 300 as I remember, and only required very small corrections from time to time. If this pilot was at a point where he had to turn the throttle, it must have been to make such a correction, and that was the non response that initiated this sequence.


_________________
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:00 pm 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario
Quote:
The throttle correlation was good on the 300 as I remember, and only required very small corrections from time to time.


Interesting. Both of the 300's I trained in had no correlation whatever - if you moved the collective, or a pedal, you'd better be rolling the throttle too! I wonder if the information in the accident report alludes to which configuration the subject 300 was. Perhaps if a correlated machine, the pilot was just not used to actually having to roll the throttle.

I remember doing stuck pedals in the 500, my instructor was telling me to move the governor switch up or down for torque control. I asked, can I not just roll the throttle? He said he'd never tried it, but go ahead - it worked like a charm!



Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC-07:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gsharp01, KyleH, photofly and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]

For questions/comments please send them to
avcanada@gmail.com


AvCanada Topsites List
AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com

While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. If you feel a topic or post is inappropriate email us at avcanada@gmail.com .  By reading these forums you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable. This website is not responsible or liable in any way for any false or misleading messages or job ads placed at our site. 

Use AvCanada's information at your own risk!

We reserve the right to remove any messages that we deem unacceptable.
When you post a message, your IP is logged and may be provided to concerned parties where unethical or illegal behavior is apparent. All rights reserved.