WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#126 Post by Rockie » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:57 am

What a laugh Complex. Coincidentally my sister had a brother who served in the military as well, but despite all her other numerous virtues and I love her dearly, she knows nothing about the military or the nuances of leadership. Just like you.

To you, leadership and authority are a hammer.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#127 Post by RatherBeFlying » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:03 pm

The only half decent training on structural fire propagation is that given to firefighters - who then get exposed to lots of fire situations.

Flight and cabin crew get a bit of training with extinguishers and laptop battery fires, but once the Jet A ignites, it's time to GTFO as nobody can guarantee a breathable cabin atmosphere for the next two minutes.

The one exception is a brake fire where the RTO certification test requires the firefighters wait two minutes before beginning extinguishing efforts.

I've been in burning buildings three times and have evacuated a number of times on false or
precautionary alarms. A reinforced cement building has a lot of fire resistance and is far safer than a low melting point aluminum tube with up to half its weight in fuel and constrained exits and passages.

Trust me on this: you don't want to be the crew where passengers are lost because of a delayed evacuation because the crew was otherwise occupied.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#128 Post by A346Dude » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:31 pm

If the cabin crew initiates an evacuation 10 seconds earlier than the Captain would have, given their closer proximity to the problem and hence better assessment of the threat, it's not those 10 seconds at the start of the evacuation that matter. It's the 10 seconds at the end of the evacuation when the cabin is potentially filled with smoke and the last passenger is fighting for their life to get out.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#129 Post by pelmet » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm

A346Dude wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:31 pm
If the cabin crew initiates an evacuation 10 seconds earlier than the Captain would have, given their closer proximity to the problem and hence better assessment of the threat, it's not those 10 seconds at the start of the evacuation that matter. It's the 10 seconds at the end of the evacuation when the cabin is potentially filled with smoke and the last passenger is fighting for their life to get out.
And what exactly do you say to the pax that get sucked into the engine? Sorry? Oh that's right...in their panic, they will all go in the proper direction. There can be serious consequences to initiating an evacuation without the cockpit knowing. An extreme accident where the aircraft has broken apart and it is obvious that it is time to leave is different than some flames at the wingtip....or behind the engine due to a wet start. And it wouldn't surprise me that a large percentage of the flight creew are unaware of a wet start. Can you imagine a bunch of pax exiting the other side and it was a crossbleed start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2zE86YAGf8

Speaking about going in the proper direction to go after exiting the overwing exit...not one AC flight attendant ever mentions this in the over wing brief. It is of critical importance yet never mentioned. Why?
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#130 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:29 am

pelmet wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm
And what exactly do you say to the pax that get sucked into the engine? Sorry? Oh that's right...in their panic, they will all go in the proper direction.
Before initiating an evacuation the cabin crew must first ensure the aircraft is stopped and the engines shut down. If anything, they need more specific training and procedures to recognize and confirm those two things have occurred.
pelmet wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm
Speaking about going in the proper direction to go after exiting the overwing exit...not one AC flight attendant ever mentions this in the over wing brief. It is of critical importance yet never mentioned. Why?
Probably because they’re not clairvoyant and can’t predict where the threat will be or a safe direction to run. People generally don’t need to be specifically told to run away from a fire so the “away” part should take care of itself.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#131 Post by pelmet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 am

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:29 am
pelmet wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm
And what exactly do you say to the pax that get sucked into the engine? Sorry? Oh that's right...in their panic, they will all go in the proper direction.
Before initiating an evacuation the cabin crew must first ensure the aircraft is stopped and the engines shut down. If anything, they need more specific training and procedures to recognize and confirm those two things have occurred.
pelmet wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm
Speaking about going in the proper direction to go after exiting the overwing exit...not one AC flight attendant ever mentions this in the over wing brief. It is of critical importance yet never mentioned. Why?
Probably because they’re not clairvoyant and can’t predict where the threat will be or a safe direction to run. People generally don’t need to be specifically told to run away from a fire so the “away” part should take care of itself.
Most evacuations have nothing to do with a fire, so that answer is not applicable to most evacuations.

There already is already something telling us which way to run....painted arrows and the safety card which it is well known fact does not get looked at. So why don't the F/A's point the direction out. The arrows must be there for a reason(basically directing you toward the easier escape direction using the flaps and possibly to keep you away from the inlet). They really should emphasize which way to go in my opinion.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#132 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am

pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 am
Most evacuations have nothing to do with a fire, so that answer is not applicable to most evacuations.
Fire, or the threat of fire is by far the most common reason for evacuating an aircraft and was in fact the reason for evacuating this one. And again, the FA's have no way to predict what or where the threat will be before you even close the doors so don't be telling people in a pre-flight overwing exit brief which way to go once they exit the airplane in an evacuation. "Away" is all they need to know at that point and all they'll naturally do anyway.
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 am
There already is already something telling us which way to run....painted arrows and the safety card which it is well known fact does not get looked at. So why don't the F/A's point the direction out. The arrows must be there for a reason(basically directing you toward the easier escape direction using the flaps and possibly to keep you away from the inlet). They really should emphasize which way to go in my opinion.


That's to get out and off the airplane as quickly and safely as possible. After that it's anybody's guess. Even the arrows pointing to the back of the wing are incorrect if there's a raging fire there or a 50' dropoff into a raveen. We don't tell the FA's which side to evacuate on anymore either for much the same reason...we can't see what's back there better than they can.

Edit: See the Turkey 737-800 overrun accident for a graphic example of why you don't tell people in a pre-flight brief which way to run.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#133 Post by pelmet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:12 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 am
Most evacuations have nothing to do with a fire, so that answer is not applicable to most evacuations.
Fire, or the threat of fire is by far the most common reason for evacuating an aircraft and was in fact the reason for evacuating this one. And again, the FA's have no way to predict what or where the threat will be before you even close the doors so don't be telling people in a pre-flight overwing exit brief which way to go once they exit the airplane in an evacuation. "Away" is all they need to know at that point and all they'll naturally do anyway.
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 am
There already is already something telling us which way to run....painted arrows and the safety card which it is well known fact does not get looked at. So why don't the F/A's point the direction out. The arrows must be there for a reason(basically directing you toward the easier escape direction using the flaps and possibly to keep you away from the inlet). They really should emphasize which way to go in my opinion.


That's to get out and off the airplane as quickly and safely as possible. After that it's anybody's guess. Even the arrows pointing to the back of the wing are incorrect if there's a raging fire there or a 50' dropoff into a raveen. We don't tell the FA's which side to evacuate on anymore either for much the same reason...we can't see what's back there better than they can.

Edit: See the Turkey 737-800 overrun accident for a graphic example of why you don't tell people in a pre-flight brief which way to run.
That's actually quite interesting info Rockie. So the reason that the F/A's at AC don't tell us which direction to go(forward or aft) during an evacuation of the overwing exit is not due to it having been overlooked but is actually intentional, even though the safety cards and arrows(possibly regulatory requirements) show the direction the pax are supposed to go.

As well, it sounds like at AC, that even if you know what side a fire is on, you are not allowed to direct an evacuation from one side or the other.

Don't take my statements as critticism, I just was not aware of these fact and find it interesting.

Now to be honest with you, I personally would have given a side to evacuate in these cases but I would be interested to hear if any other airlines have similar policies and the pros and cons of that policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyBnhX7rXQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0k7Kqd82EY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5B8QrpudpA
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#134 Post by HiFlyChick » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Aren't you guys arguing apples and oranges? Looks to me like one of you is arguing against saying in which direction to evacuate in the pre-flight briefing, and the other is arguing for saying in which direction to evacuate after the event has occurred....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#135 Post by pelmet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:32 pm
Aren't you guys arguing apples and oranges? Looks to me like one of you is arguing against saying in which direction to evacuate in the pre-flight briefing, and the other is arguing for saying in which direction to evacuate after the event has occurred....
Concerning the direction(forward or rearward after exiting the overwing, there is a contradiction between what he is saying(go the way that is from the fire, if there is one which there almost never is for an evacuation but does happen on occasion) and what the Transport Canada safety cards say, which is to go rearward. I'm not saying that TC is more correct but it is a contradiction. Maybe TC should insist on something different.

Then again, one can imagine passengers going forward after exiting the overwing and guess what, most broke ankles jumping off the leading edge and then were caught by the subsequent fire. It is pretty high up there on the widebody jets and even an A320. That is probably why you see the go to the rear arrows on the wing and safety card. Perhaps TC knows what they are doing when the approve a safety card. As of now, I suggest that AC flight attendants brief explicitly to go rearward unless there is a fire in that direction.

Plus there is the risk of getting sucked in the engine when you go near the front of the engine after the pilots forget to shut down the engine which happens sometimes.

On a separate note, Rockie has said that for his company....
Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am
We don't tell the FA's which side to evacuate on anymore either for much the same reason...we can't see what's back there better than they can.
I found that interesting as it sounds like a written policy and was wondering if anyone else has similar as well as opinions on that sort of a policy. Might make sense, but willing to listen to opinions. Hopefully we get some.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#136 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm

The arrows on the wing Pelmet are to direct passengers either toward where the slide is, or the flaps. Because that is the evacuation route out of the aircraft.. After that they never say where to go because as I’ve said before, they don’t know where the threat is going to be.

It is left to the FA’s to decide which exit they open because they can see what’s outside and we can’t. They are trained to assess the environment outside the exit window and decide. If after they open the door they determine it’s unsafe they block the exit and redirect passengers to another exit. This is common practise for very practical reasons, I’d be surprised if other airlines did it differently.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#137 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:54 am

pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm

On a separate note, Rockie has said that for his company....
Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am
We don't tell the FA's which side to evacuate on anymore either for much the same reason...we can't see what's back there better than they can.
I found that interesting as it sounds like a written policy and was wondering if anyone else has similar as well as opinions on that sort of a policy. Might make sense, but willing to listen to opinions. Hopefully we get some.
The policy at my Airline is the same - for exactly the same reason listed by Rockie.

I can just see part of the outboard engine from my seat so it's impossible to see what is happening behind me.

My aircraft (A340) doesn't have overwing exits. Doors 1 and 2 are ahead of the wing and doors 3 and 4 are behind the wing.

Cabin crew are trained to check outside to see if it is safe before opening any door.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#138 Post by Unanswered topics » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:42 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:04 am
122 posts about authority and nobody knows who ordered the evacuation?
If you watch the YouTube videos, you'll hear an announcement, "Evacuate, Evacuate, Evacuate."

That is an announcement from the flight deck.

Whether anyone else took the initiative to evacuate sooner remains to be revealed, but those three words are to be announced by the pilots over the PA very close to the end of the Evacuation checklist.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#139 Post by pelmet » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:54 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:54 am
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm

On a separate note, Rockie has said that for his company....
Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am
We don't tell the FA's which side to evacuate on anymore either for much the same reason...we can't see what's back there better than they can.
I found that interesting as it sounds like a written policy and was wondering if anyone else has similar as well as opinions on that sort of a policy. Might make sense, but willing to listen to opinions. Hopefully we get some.
The policy at my Airline is the same - for exactly the same reason listed by Rockie.

I can just see part of the outboard engine from my seat so it's impossible to see what is happening behind me.

My aircraft (A340) doesn't have overwing exits. Doors 1 and 2 are ahead of the wing and doors 3 and 4 are behind the wing.

Cabin crew are trained to check outside to see if it is safe before opening any door.
Thanks for the reply. My airline has never specifically said to pilots that we should not attempt to restrict the side of the aircraft to evacuate from. It appears that AC and your airline with A340 does. Perhaps there are more as well.


Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm
The arrows on the wing Pelmet are to direct passengers either toward where the slide is, or the flaps. Because that is the evacuation route out of the aircraft.. After that they never say where to go because as I’ve said before, they don’t know where the threat is going to be
Thanks for the reply. The bottom line is that the arrows and briefing cards specify a direction but the F/A's don't. This may be the best way or maybe not.

However, next time I on an AC flight and seated at an overwing exit(I do try to use my zed tickets at AC a lot and really appreciate it), I plan to ask the F/A after the briefing when I am asked if there are any questions, I will ask if there is any particular direction I should go after exiting the window and perhaps more detailed questions as well.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu May 03, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#140 Post by howey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:52 pm

From the CADORS:


UPDATE: TSB Report#A18O0002: C-FDMB, a Boeing 737-8CT aircraft operated by WestJet was conducting flight WJA2425 from Cancún/Cancún Intl, Mexico (MMUN) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ) with 6 crew members and 168 passengers on board. Following the aircraft’s arrival from MMUN, WJA2425 was stopped with the engines and APU running, on Taxi-lane 2 on the north side of Pier B at Terminal 3. C-FPRP, a Boeing 737-8FH aircraft operated by Sunwing, was parked at Gate B13, and was being prepared to be towed to an alternate position on the infield. A Sunwing maintenance technician was in the cockpit of C-FPRP, and the aircraft’s APU was running. Two Swissport International ground personnel were in the cab of the tow vehicle. The tow vehicle was informed by North Apron to pushback at their discretion. The Sunwing aircraft (under tow) began to move back and the APU contacted the right wing of the stationary Westjet aircraft. A fire rapidly ensued. The WestJet flight crew immediately commenced the required steps for an evacuation, and an evacuation was ordered shortly after. The Swissport tow vehicle operator pulled the Sunwing aircraft back towards the gate to separate the two aircraft. The slides on the WestJet aircraft were utilized on doors L1, R1 and L2, along with the over-wing exits on the left side; all passengers evacuated safely. The maintenance technician aboard the Sunwing aircraft exited the left cockpit window using the emergency rope and received minor injuries. ARFF arrived at the scene, and extinguished the fire. The Sunwing aircraft sustained substantial damage. Westjet is evaluating the damage to their aircraft. TSB investigators deployed to the occurrence site.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#141 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:26 am

HiFlyChick wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:14 am
"Such are the times we live in, with our ultra-feminist-worshipping culture, I suppose. All good as long as no one's feelings get hurt, right?"

"I say there needs to be some balance, just make no mistake about where the buck stops, no matter how "empowered" other crew members may be feeling on the day."
complexintentions wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm
...Sounds to me like you're the one with the sexist assumptions.
No, actually, it sounds like you are....
Sorry, but principles of leadership have nothing to do with gender whatsoever, and I have stated that clearly, which of course you don't quote as it doesn't fit the agenda. Just in case it's too much work to go back and actually read them, I basically stated that my views on the roles of different crewmembers apply regardless of whether those in authority or those subject to it, are men or women.

Not everything is about gender, no matter how many are desperate to frame every issue that way.

Your attempt to infer things that aren't there is only helping to make my point about blindly following the currently trendy dogma.

I'm glad the evac worked out, and ultimately that's the goal.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#142 Post by pelmet » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:00 am

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm
The arrows on the wing Pelmet are to direct passengers either toward where the slide is, or the flaps. Because that is the evacuation route out of the aircraft.. After that they never say where to go because as I’ve said before, they don’t know where the threat is going to be.

It is left to the FA’s to decide which exit they open because they can see what’s outside and we can’t. They are trained to assess the environment outside the exit window and decide. If after they open the door they determine it’s unsafe they block the exit and redirect passengers to another exit. This is common practise for very practical reasons, I’d be surprised if other airlines did it differently.
Another example of why you want to follow the arrows unless there is a very good reason not to(and therefore should be briefed)......


Contributing to the serious passenger injury was (1) the delay in shutting down the left engine and (2) a flight attendant’s deviation from company procedures,
which resulted in passengers evacuating from the left overwing exit while the left engine was still operating. Contributing to the delay in shutting down the left engine was (1) the lack of a separate checklist procedure for Boeing 767 airplanes that specifically addressed engine fires on the ground and (2) the lack of communication between the flight and cabin crews after the airplane came to a stop.


Once again, the engine wasn't shut down in a timely manner. Imagine if this had been a narrowbody(with no slide guidance) and pax had gone forward. F/A's should be telling pax which way to go, unless there is a fire(which they already do when it comes to the emergency exit itself ie, open hatch and go out unless there is a fire).

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR1801.pdf
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#143 Post by pelmet » Thu May 03, 2018 5:47 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:54 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:54 am
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm

On a separate note, Rockie has said that for his company....



I found that interesting as it sounds like a written policy and was wondering if anyone else has similar as well as opinions on that sort of a policy. Might make sense, but willing to listen to opinions. Hopefully we get some.
The policy at my Airline is the same - for exactly the same reason listed by Rockie.

I can just see part of the outboard engine from my seat so it's impossible to see what is happening behind me.

My aircraft (A340) doesn't have overwing exits. Doors 1 and 2 are ahead of the wing and doors 3 and 4 are behind the wing.

Cabin crew are trained to check outside to see if it is safe before opening any door.
Thanks for the reply. My airline has never specifically said to pilots that we should not attempt to restrict the side of the aircraft to evacuate from. It appears that AC and your airline with A340 does. Perhaps there are more as well.


Rockie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm
The arrows on the wing Pelmet are to direct passengers either toward where the slide is, or the flaps. Because that is the evacuation route out of the aircraft.. After that they never say where to go because as I’ve said before, they don’t know where the threat is going to be
Thanks for the reply. The bottom line is that the arrows and briefing cards specify a direction but the F/A's don't. This may be the best way or maybe not.

However, next time I on an AC flight and seated at an overwing exit(I do try to use my zed tickets at AC a lot and really appreciate it), I plan to ask the F/A after the briefing when I am asked if there are any questions, I will ask if there is any particular direction I should go after exiting the window and perhaps more detailed questions as well.
I did sit at the exit of an AC Embraer lately(prefer when I get business class on a zed bit didn't work out this time) and during the briefing I noted that the F/A did not say which direction to go after exiting the cabin. I asked if I should go forward and he said No because of the engine which could be dangerous. That being said, as stated earlier, there could be situations such as terrain being an overriding concern on which direction to go. There are too many possible scenarios to cover in the simple briefing that is required for the average passenger. So I do understand why the decision is left up to the passenger. Which just makes it all the more important for the pilots to ensure that the engines are shut down in a timely manner during an evacuation. It is quite far down the checklist on some aircraft types.
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