Fuel Selector Valve Incident

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pelmet
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Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by pelmet »

Been quite a long time since I flew a C185. Is there anything one can notice in a situation like this to catch the fault?

"C-FTQB, a Cessna A185E aircraft operated by South Nahanni Airways, was conducting a local VFR flight from Pitt Meadows, BC (CYPK). Shortly after departing from Runway 26L at CYPK, the pilot reported a rough-running engine. The pilot immediately returned and landed on Runway 08R. After coming to a complete stop, the engine was shut down to prevent fire. The aircraft was subsequently towed off the runway.

The operator and its contracted maintenance organization discovered that the newly installed fuel selector valve was misplaced and that the lever had been selected upside down. As a result, the valve was closed instead of opened during pre-takeoff checks. There were no mechanical stops on the valve to prevent the full rotation of the lever. The operator issued a memo to all pilots to raise awareness of the situation."
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photofly
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by photofly »

If my engine “ran rough” and allowed me to take off, and then return to the airport, all with the fuel selector valve inadvertently switched to “off”, I’d be looking for more than just an upside down lever to fix.
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pelmet
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:07 pm If my engine “ran rough” and allowed me to take off, and then return to the airport, all with the fuel selector valve inadvertently switched to “off”, I’d be looking for more than just an upside down lever to fix.
Looking at the report again, perhaps what happened is that the lever was fine, it was the internal mechanism that was improper. When I read upside down, I was and still am not 100% sure what was meant by it.

Any thoughts?
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trey kule
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by trey kule »

It has been a long time for me as well since I flew a 185.
First, when did this incident happen? Have you a link or reference to the incident.

When the fuel is selected off on a 185,the engine does not run rough, it stops. And fairly quickly. I expect that there might have been something else going on here if the engine was running rough but did, in fact, keep running .

The company issuing a memo to pilots was an interesting comment. What would that say? Dont trust the idiots who do our maintenance? Or maybe, make sure that the fuel selector is on, and you have made certain to drain the water from the fuel tanks? Just sayin’. The comment about fire was interesting as well.

Maybe my memory is not so accurate as I seem to recall a fuel shutoff valve separate than the selector
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Last edited by trey kule on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Accident speculation:
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J31
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by J31 »

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Zaibatsu
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by Zaibatsu »

This was a big gotcha that was hammered into me when I flew the 185.

Two things will make it happen. The handle being installed 180 degrees out, or the D shaped trim piece being destroyed to allow you to select the south position on the valve.

The valve is just like the 182 or 172, but in the 185 they only use the Left Both Right positions with a separate valve for fuel shutoff.

The 185 has header tanks beyond the valve. It will allow the engine to start, run, and develop max power for about 5 minutes with the shut off valve on and the selector in the "off" position.
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J31
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by J31 »

Been a while since I worked on and flew the C185.

The fuel system has a left and right wing fuel tanks with a 3 position fuel selector. Selections are left tank, right tank, and both. Fuel then goes to a small accumulator tank (about 1.5 gallons) and then to a push pull fuel shut off knob on the dash. I believe the fuel fuel selector is a four position with left, right, both and off. With the off position not being used in the C185 installation however it can be installed upside down so the off position is actually the "Both tanks" on the placard.

With fuel in the accumulator tank the engine could run for several minutes.....enough to take off.

My theory.

Started on the left tank, did the runup on the right tank, then selected both for takeoff. Engine started running rough so a quick 180 back to the runway where she quit.

Not the first time this has happened.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... ppex-b.png
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jakester
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by jakester »

Had nothing to do with the fuel selector as I was there when this happened, apprentice missed putting the fuel placard back on the selector after the shutoff valve was repaired and pull cable installed properly, high time pilot asked where the placard was and he would put it back on, he did the runup checks, taxied out and took off, phone call came in shortly after and said engine failure, he was at 1500' when it quit and just got the mains on the runway but the tailwheel was in the grass on touchdown, we towed it back and I started it by switching to one tank, the selector position indicator was installed upside down and fuel was off when the plane left the ground.......it will run quite awhile from just the header tank !
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

When I flew TQB, the tank selector system had been removed to allow for a slightly higher fuel capacity. Fuel was either on both or off. I can't imagine a pilot with any sort of experience on a 185, or that one specifically, could take off with the selector in the wrong place, placard or not. Unless the actual handle had been installed backwards.
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pelmet
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by pelmet »

jakester wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:06 am Had nothing to do with the fuel selector as I was there when this happened, apprentice missed putting the fuel placard back on the selector after the shutoff valve was repaired and pull cable installed properly, high time pilot asked where the placard was and he would put it back on, he did the runup checks, taxied out and took off, phone call came in shortly after and said engine failure, he was at 1500' when it quit and just got the mains on the runway but the tailwheel was in the grass on touchdown, we towed it back and I started it by switching to one tank, the selector position indicator was installed upside down and fuel was off when the plane left the ground.......it will run quite awhile from just the header tank !
Thanks,

If true, it is an example of how TSB reports themselves sometimes contain errors or misleading information. I can think of one or two discussions I have had on this forum where I disagreed with a TSB conclusion(admittedly, a final report has a much more thorough investigation process) although that was based more on opinion than directly erronous factual information. Just shows how one needs to look further into things themselves sometimes, if possible, to get the full story and learn from it.

It seems strange that a high time pilot on type would not be familiar with the fuel selector placard and operation of the fuel selector even without a placard or a misplaced one but.......you only said "high time pilot", not actual experience on type. Also a bad design if this is a Cessna designed placard installation and it can fit into place in the wrong position. been too long for me to remember exactly how it looks. Not a particularly good design either to be able to rotate a fuel selector to an off position when the 'selection for fuel off is to be made with a separate lever. Just another one of the many 'gotcha's' that will eventually trap an unwary pilot.

Good reminder on how fuel in a header tank style of aircraft system can create a situation where on can get airborne with a fuel selector improperly selected which seems less likely on an aircraft without a header tank depending on system design.
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jakester
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by jakester »

one end of the lever is " pointy " the other end is shorter and blunt but either way will fit on the shaft no problem, high time meaning all types in the company fleet
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pelmet
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by pelmet »

jakester wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:25 am one end of the lever is " pointy " the other end is shorter and blunt but either way will fit on the shaft no problem, high time meaning all types in the company fleet
A good example of a non-fail-safe aircraft design. It would be interesting to know time on Cessna types but either way, it shows the importance of becoming familiar with something as basic as the look of a fuel selector. Long, pointy end is the selector. Not sure about the legality of doing your own installation of a placard that might involve removing a fuel selector. Maybe the placard can be installed without disturbing anything else. I assume that is legal for anyone to do.
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pelmet
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by pelmet »

Found an interesting thread on another forum about C172 fuel selectors along with good info about the reservoir tank installed in the fuel injected C172's.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/communi ... 172.79287/

One of the posts talks about the change in regulations that explains why newer Cessna's have a different style of fuel selector. A picture also shows the placard on a C172 and you can see that the selector handle has to be removed in order to install a placard. Not a typical non-maintenance action that would be done by a pilot without other qualifications.
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GyvAir
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by GyvAir »

Similar incident from 2006, with photos of the offending 185 selector valve:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... ef-713.htm

A rather poorly thought out design in a number of ways:

An ambiguous pointer design.
Chintzy plastic escutcheon serving as a travel stop.
An "unmarked off position" possible.
Ability to install the handle backwards? (I'm not sure about that, but in the pictures I found, it looks like a plain square shaft)
On March 19, 2006, an amphibious Cessna A185F lost all engine power shortly after takeoff. The pilot was able to land on the remaining runway, but the landing gear could not extend fully, causing minor damage to the keel strips. Prior to starting the engine, the pilot rotated the fuel tank selector into what appeared to be the BOTH position. After starting, the engine was operated at idle until the oil warmed up to 75° before a run-up check was performed. The aircraft was then taxied a short distance to the runway for takeoff. When the engine lost power, it had been running for 10 to 12 min. It was determined that the fuel tank selector was in an unmarked OFF position; 180° opposite the BOTH valve to an accumulator tank mounted on the firewall, thence through a fuel shut-off valve into the engine compartment. The fuel tank selector valve is located on the cabin floor between the front seats. There is a vapour return line that returns vapour and excess fuel from the engine-driven fuel pump to the accumulator tank.

The valve is described in the pilot operating handbook (POH) as a "three-position selector valve labelled LEFT TANK, RIGHT TANK, and BOTH ON." When not installed, the valve can be rotated to a fourth position, OFF, that is 180° opposite the BOTH position. The valve has detents that have the same tactile feel in all four positions. However, when installed, it is constrained from being selected to the OFF position by a plastic ridge around the fuel tank selector cover, as shown in Figure 1. This plastic ridge can be stepped on by passengers and damaged. If this happens, the fuel tank selector valve can be accidentally rotated to the OFF position.
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who me ?
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Re: Fuel Selector Valve Incident

Post by who me ? »

I wonder if this fuel selector issue is why Cessna made the 185s with no fuel selector,
and a fuel selector an option.
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