Westwind

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FlyGy
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Re: Westwind

Post by FlyGy »

At the risk if putting words into his mouth, I think that what Guilden is getting at is the corporate safety culture of Westwind Aviation was the root cause.
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

FlyGy wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:52 pm At the risk if putting words into his mouth, I think that what Guilden is getting at is the corporate safety culture of Westwind Aviation was the root cause.
When senior managers who have absolutely no aviation experience are tasked with running an airline you will undoubtedly see a corporate culture change, and definitely not for the better. You simply can’t run an airline like a tour bus or trucking company. I’m actually surprised this didn’t happen sooner TBH.
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smashmonkey
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Re: Westwind

Post by smashmonkey »

When senior managers who have absolutely no aviation experience are tasked with running an airline you will undoubtedly see a corporate culture change, and definitely not for the better. You simply can’t run an airline like a tour bus or trucking company. I’m actually surprised this didn’t happen sooner TBH.
You can't blame it all on them. Some pretty toxic pilots were also there and in charge of things.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Westwind

Post by C.W.E. »

Unless the law has changed the pilots are the ones who make the final decision to fly regardless of what management says.

But those of you who do not understand that I wish you luck if you have an accident and it is determined you were not in compliance of the law when you made the decision to fly.
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FlyGy
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Re: Westwind

Post by FlyGy »

I wonder if this includes De-ice equipment.

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/mobile/fed ... -1.4298100
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Westwind

Post by goingnowherefast »

What about every other airport in the north? I don't think Fond-du-lac is exactly a booming northern community, or main hub.
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leftoftrack
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Re: Westwind

Post by leftoftrack »

Canadian North has De-icing available at every airport they fly into. It's in the earlier posts
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Diadem
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Re: Westwind

Post by Diadem »

leftoftrack wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 pm Canadian North has De-icing available at every airport they fly into. It's in the earlier posts
Okay... And what about the airports to which West Wind operates, seeing as they're the ones this thread is actually about?
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leftoftrack
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Re: Westwind

Post by leftoftrack »

If westwind can't operate legally how they are setup then its the Captains job to set the parking brake till they do. You think those bars on his/her shoulders are for decoration?
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Re: Westwind

Post by goingnowherefast »

Or divert somewhere that has the resources (deicing equipment, runway plow, maintenance) to operate safely.
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

leftoftrack wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:50 pm If westwind can't operate legally how they are setup then its the Captains job to set the parking brake till they do. You think those bars on his/her shoulders are for decoration?
That's the kicker, they were legal to operate! The deicing box was "ticked" so TC must have been happy that the spray can was sufficient to deice an ATR. If TC says it's good then it's good, right? A lot of companies will do only the very minimum required to comply with TC...that's it! No more.
That being said, your post would suggest captains should've marched into the CP's office and say they refuse to fly to ZFD until they upgrade the deicing equipment. Care to take a guess at how that would've played out? :lol:
I don't disagree with you but we all know that's not how it goes down. You have to make an effort to find a way to safely conduct a flight with the limited resources given to you. If you just can't find a way to make it work safely, then you set the park brake and go home.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Westwind

Post by C.W.E. »

That being said, your post would suggest captains should've marched into the CP's office and say they refuse to fly to ZFD until they upgrade the deicing equipment. Care to take a guess at how that would've played out? :lol:
The answer to that is simple.

The flight would not go until the safety issues were resolved.

And if the company refused to solve it then any pilot who is a professional would quit.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Westwind

Post by rookiepilot »

From reading so many of these posts, I can't believe people would risk their lives rather than tell the boss --- perhaps politely -- to F--- off --- when clearly called for.

I have in the past in (non flying) jobs, for much, much lower stakes than my own life.

You're the captain. You decide. Not them. Life is far too precious.

Just my outsiders point of view.
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FlyGy
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Re: Westwind

Post by FlyGy »

I've flown as a passenger many times and it wasn't unheard of for us to be spending the night at ZFD because of weather. Since Dec 13 I've noticed a lot more erring on the side of caution with the aircraft not even departing YXE.
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Re: Westwind

Post by jakeandelwood »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:00 am From reading so many of these posts, I can't believe people would risk their lives rather than tell the boss --- perhaps politely -- to F--- off --- when clearly called for.

I have in the past in (non flying) jobs, for much, much lower stakes than my own life.

You're the captain. You decide. Not them. Life is far too precious.

Just my outsiders point of view.
Problem is there is always that "hero" Captain who will always pull it off, that then makes that other Captain who refuses look like a wuss. That hero Captain always seems to be the Chief pilots little buddy.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Westwind

Post by goingnowherefast »

I'm happy not to be that "hero captain". However I'm also pretty quick to talk to whoever replaces me, or who I'm being called in to replace. Who knows, maybe I see something they didn't or vise versa.

Pitting pilots against each other like that is horrible, and I do my best not to play that game.
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:54 am
That being said, your post would suggest captains should've marched into the CP's office and say they refuse to fly to ZFD until they upgrade the deicing equipment. Care to take a guess at how that would've played out? :lol:
The answer to that is simple.

The flight would not go until the safety issues were resolved.

And if the company refused to solve it then any pilot who is a professional would quit.
I totally agree, but in a perfect world we all know that just doesn't happen. If you quit every time a company didn't change what you felt they needed to change, you'd be that pilot with 25+ companies on his/her resume. Good luck finding decent job at a reputable company, they WILL ask you why you changed jobs so often if you manage to even get an interview. You're automatically labelled an trouble maker or a boat rocker and companies won't even give your resume a second look because they don't want to deal with a "right fighter". Guaranteed!
If you have a good amount of hours in your logbook they may overlook your job history but if you're fairly low time, it's a tough position to be in. You'd better hope you have a wife with a good job or have the ability to live at your parent's house because it'll be a grind to find work with a decent company. The squeaky wheel doesn't get the good jobs or in some cases the upgrade to captain. I know,it's wrong on every level but it's the way it is in this industry.
Most pilots have bills and student loans to pay back and most can't be out of work to fight over an issue that the company will say is legal.

Questions:
1) Do you think that all the professional pilots in Sask. who operate into ZFD (and similar airports throughout Northern Canada) in winter should've told their respective companies they flat out refuse to go there till the deicing equipment is upgraded?

2) Why do you think so many professional pilots still go operate in these airports safely during winter knowing full well that the equipment is insufficient? Are they all "unprofessional" for doing so?

Look, we are all happy for you that you've had a very successful career being able to tell employers to GFT at the first sign of anything unsafe but let's get real, a huge majority of pilots are not like you. You're a rarity.
It's not black and white. It's all about assessing risk and making safe decisions based on the information and tools you have at hand, as I said before. Choose your battles.
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av8ts
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Re: Westwind

Post by av8ts »

HO Driver wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:05 am
C.W.E. wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:54 am
That being said, your post would suggest captains should've marched into the CP's office and say they refuse to fly to ZFD until they upgrade the deicing equipment. Care to take a guess at how that would've played out? :lol:
The answer to that is simple.

The flight would not go until the safety issues were resolved.

And if the company refused to solve it then any pilot who is a professional would quit.
I totally agree, but in a perfect world we all know that just doesn't happen. If you quit every time a company didn't change what you felt they needed to change, you'd be that pilot with 25+ companies on his/her resume. Good luck finding decent job at a reputable company, they WILL ask you why you changed jobs so often if you manage to even get an interview. You're automatically labelled an trouble maker or a boat rocker and companies won't even give your resume a second look because they don't want to deal with a "right fighter". Guaranteed!
If you have a good amount of hours in your logbook they may overlook your job history but if you're fairly low time, it's a tough position to be in. You'd better hope you have a wife with a good job or have the ability to live at your parent's house because it'll be a grind to find work with a decent company. The squeaky wheel doesn't get the good jobs or in some cases the upgrade to captain. I know,it's wrong on every level but it's the way it is in this industry.
Most pilots have bills and student loans to pay back and most can't be out of work to fight over an issue that the company will say is legal.

Questions:
1) Do you think that all the professional pilots in Sask. who operate into ZFD (and similar airports throughout Northern Canada) in winter should've told their respective companies they flat out refuse to go there till the deicing equipment is upgraded?

2) Why do you think so many professional pilots still go operate in these airports safely during winter knowing full well that the equipment is insufficient? Are they all "unprofessional" for doing so?

Look, we are all happy for you that you've had a very successful career being able to tell employers to GFT at the first sign of anything unsafe but let's get real, a huge majority of pilots are not like you. You're a rarity.
It's not black and white. It's all about assessing risk and making safe decisions based on the information and tools you have at hand, as I said before. Choose your battles.
Absolutely agree. It’s not as black and white as the privileged “I would just tell my boss no” pilots pretend it is. It’s actually many shades of grey with most pilots just trying to get the job done safely with the tools they have
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Meatservo
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Re: Westwind

Post by Meatservo »

This doesn't need to be a black-and-white issue. So the aerodrome is not equipped for de-icing. The majority of the time, you can go in and out of there without a hassle. The one time you do land there and the aircraft does happen to get contaminated while it's sitting there, and it's not something you can reasonably deal with using a ladder and broom or whatever, THAT'S when you call the boss. Toss it into his lap. Don't tell him to go @#$! himself or anything like that. You might be spending the night in Stoney Rapids or whatever. Learn to accept that eventuality. But phone the boss and say something like, "Uh hey chief, there's a bit of a problem here- the plane's covered in snow/freezing drizzle/whatever and we're not able to deal with it with the stuff on hand. What do you want us to do?" Sure it takes some balls to tell the passengers they're not taking off, and maybe you're in for an uncomfortable night as well. But the squeaky wheel DOES get the grease, eventually. You just have to know how to squeak. The kind of squeaking where you toss the ball into management's court and make it clear, without having to say it out loud, that the time has come to deal with this issue. "This plane can't fly. It's covered in ice". It's no different than having an engine that won't start or a door that won't shut. "This plane's fucked. It won't fly. I need some help up here"...Hey, they might say something like "You get your ass back in that goddamn airplane and come home right now" ... THAT'S when you tell him to go @#$! himself. But I bet it won't come to that. If it does, document it. There's ways of squeaking and rocking that are perfectly reasonable and that force the other party into either dealing with it or exposing themselves. Don't make THEIR attitude into YOUR attitude. It takes work but you can stick up for what's right without resorting to being the kind of guy who marches into the office and puts his hands on his hips and makes grand pronouncements like "I REFUSE TO DO THIS" or "I REFUSE TO DO THAT". That's not necessary.
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Re: Westwind

Post by Guilden »

Airplanes have been flying in and out of ZFD for years without cleaning off some impact ice you accumulated on the way in. A Saab took off right before them with no issue. This airplane didn't just crash because of ice accumulation, there were other factors. Mishandling of the aircraft on rotation? Hmmm. I'm pretty positive you'll read that in the accident report.
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