Park Brake on for Takeoff

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pelmet
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Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Wed May 15, 2019 7:32 am

Happened to me last year in a Light Sport Aircraft. It must have only been partially on as I was able to taxi to position, do a normal takeoff and only realize that it was on after landing when I felt unusual resistance through the handbrake on the rollout. I have no idea how it happened as it would have held the aircraft in position during the run-up but obviously it did happen(perhaps the lever located on the pedestal somehow got accidentally knocked on while in flight). Now I check it along with other things after all checklists are complete before takeoff. This has cause accidents in aircraft big and small and happened recently to another aircraft...….


"C-GORF, a Beech 1900D aircraft operated by Air Georgian, was conducting flight GGN7230 from
Medicine Hat (CYXH), AB to Calgary Intl (CYYC), AB with 2 crew members and 17 passengers on
board. During the take-off roll out of CYXH, the flight crew observed a slower rate of acceleration;
however, the take-off roll was continued. Approaching the Top Of Descent (TOD) into CYYC, the
flight crew observed that the parking brake was on. The parking brake was released, and ARFF
was requested for the arrival. After the landing, the aircraft was inspected on the runway, and two
flat tires were noted on the left main landing gear. There was no other damage or injuries related to
the occurrence."
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rookiepilot » Wed May 15, 2019 10:28 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:32 am


I have no idea how it happened as it would have held the aircraft in position during the run-up but obviously it did happen(perhaps the lever located on the pedestal somehow got accidentally knocked on while in flight).
Following an effective flow would prevent this in a light aircraft.

Part of my pre takeoff flow check, and pre landing as well I touch the handle every time, and besides I have never needed to engage a parking brake for a run up in any light aircraft.

This is a very bad idea, if the parking brake lets go, and they do, one could easily hit another plane.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by PilotDAR » Wed May 15, 2019 10:57 am

I too, never use the parking brake, unless there is no alternative. I once did in a C-310, while I was heads down doing a preflight, to look up, and find myself slowly inching forward. No harm, but risk. So, never again. I'm either rolling, holding the brakes, or chocked.

Decades back I was checking out a pilot in their 172 (yeah, I know, big deal, but that pilot had asked for a checkout, so I was there to help). Yes, the parking brake was checked off before taxi and takeoff, and it was off, but takeoff acceleration did seem slow. 'Lots of runway, we had the space. As the aircraft began to lift, I heard squealing. "Did you have your feet on the brakes?" Apparently yes...
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by who me ? » Wed May 15, 2019 11:53 am

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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Wed May 15, 2019 1:37 pm

Thanks for the replies. I don't use the brake on most aircraft I fly for the run-up but have been on this type....the Sling 2. I suppose I could try not using the parking brake during the run-up but there is a handbrake on the aircraft which the incident happened. I could hold the brake with my right hand, reach across with my left hand to advance the throttle which is in the center of the panel and then continue to use my left hand for other items. Not convenient but possible with difficulty.

The throttle and handbrake can be seen in this picture with the throttle on the left. Not convenient but doable.....

https://www.google.com/search?q=sling+2 ... JFM:&vet=1
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by youhavecontrol » Wed May 15, 2019 6:27 pm

I use the park brake regularly, but I make is a point to lock it hard enough that it's definitely on or off and there's no doubt in between. During the run-up I scan outside when applying the power, as well as during the prop exercise, as that's when the aircraft may slide. I also keep my feet on the brakes during the run-up in case they let go for some reason. The "park brake OFF" is listed at least twice on my checklist between the run-up and take-off.
I do not use the park brake if I'm actually parking the aircraft long term, as the change in temp can affect the hydraulic pressure.
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Last edited by youhavecontrol on Thu May 16, 2019 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Wed May 15, 2019 6:42 pm

youhavecontrol wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:27 pm
I use the park brake regularly, but I make is a point to lock it hard enough that it's definitely on or off and there's no doubt in between. During the run-up I scan outside when applying the power, as well as during the prop exercise, as that's when the aircraft may slide. I also keep my feet on the brakes during the run-up in case they let go for some reason. The "park brake OFF" is listed at least twice on my checklist between the run-up and take-off.
I do not use the park brake if I'm actually parking the aircraft long term, as the change can affect the hydraulic pressure.
Thanks,

Good point about the long term parking. Keep in mind that some aircraft have mechanical brakes without hydraulics. I am not sure if there might be other reasons to not set them on for long term parking but the hydraulics are not an issue anyways.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

There's to many different types of parking brake systems to post a hard and fast rule. Know your plane and operate it accordingly.

I flew a plane with unassisted brakes that probably should have had them. It was near impossible to hold the required pressure on the pedals long enough to complete the runup. You could try but your feet would be sore, concentrate on the runup and a slight relaxation of pedal pressure and you're moving. Set the brake hard, don't do the runup with the plane pointed at anything and it works in that type.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by 5x5 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 am

Personally I'm not a real fan of parking brakes for anything but parking. They aren't called run-up brakes after all. :wink:

I really don't like second guessing after accidents/incidents but can't help myself this time. The thing that gets me is that the pilots apparently admitted noticing that the acceleration prior to take-off was lower than normal but went ahead and took-off anyway. It must have been quite significant for it to come up in the post incident interview. I don't understand why they would proceed to leave the ground with less than standard performance in the first place. "The aircraft isn't exhibiting normal performance - let's get her in the air and see if it's ok there." just doesn't seem like good decision making to me.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am
There's to many different types of parking brake systems to post a hard and fast rule. Know your plane and operate it accordingly.
I agree. And it applies to a lot more than just park brake systems. There are so many varieties of aircraft and what applies to one type frequently doesn't apply to another. I think I will continue to use the park brake for the run-up on the Sling 2 as the run-up into the prevailing wind is facing a reasonably busy taxiway. Thinking it through, I believe that it is more likely with the relatively high power setting for the run-up to inadvertently start moving forward when using the handbrake than with the park brake on.


But I do try to keep a hand always close to the throttle and brake handles in case the aircraft starts moving and to always be on alert for aircraft movement even more so than usual.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 16, 2019 10:03 am

5x5 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 am
Personally I'm not a real fan of parking brakes for anything but parking. They aren't called run-up brakes after all. :wink:
Exactly. They weren't designed to hold the aircraft during a run up.

I'd be real pissed at some idiot, head down at their 10 page checklist, who let their aircraft go out of control and hit mine, because of such poor airmanship.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:03 am
5x5 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 am
Personally I'm not a real fan of parking brakes for anything but parking. They aren't called run-up brakes after all. :wink:
Exactly. They weren't designed to hold the aircraft during a run up.

I'd be real pissed at some idiot, head down at their 10 page checklist, who let their aircraft go out of control and hit mine, because of such poor airmanship.
Cessna seems to feel differently when it comes to park brake use for the run-up. Their C172 POH says to set the park brake. No doubt others do as well. Of course, good airmanship applies to this action like so many others depending on the circumstances.

https://www.regionflyers.com/wp-content ... na-POH.pdf
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Thu May 16, 2019 10:50 am

5x5 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 am
I really don't like second guessing after accidents/incidents but can't help myself this time. The thing that gets me is that the pilots apparently admitted noticing that the acceleration prior to take-off was lower than normal but went ahead and took-off anyway. It must have been quite significant for it to come up in the post incident interview. I don't understand why they would proceed to leave the ground with less than standard performance in the first place. "The aircraft isn't exhibiting normal performance - let's get her in the air and see if it's ok there." just doesn't seem like good decision making to me.

It is unknown how poor the acceleration was. If it was obvious, one would think there would be a quick RTO. Perhaps it was just a general suspicion but not confirmed. It can be a difficult thing to analyze.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by 5x5 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:10 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:50 am
It is unknown how poor the acceleration was. If it was obvious, one would think there would be a quick RTO. Perhaps it was just a general suspicion but not confirmed. It can be a difficult thing to analyze.
I completely agree and that's why I said I normally don't like to second guess after the fact. But, when the investigation report contains this statement "During the take-off roll out of CYXH, the flight crew observed a slower rate of acceleration;
however, the take-off roll was continued."
it certainly sounds like the difference was definitely noticeable and not just a vague suspicion it might not quite be normal. But perhaps it's just the wording of the report and that's why it's sometimes difficult to discuss.

I guess my main point is, when anything is, or seems, out of the ordinary in the takeoff roll, the air isn't the place to figure it out and a RTO is definitely in order.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 16, 2019 2:22 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am

Cessna seems to feel differently when it comes to park brake use for the run-up. Their C172 POH says to set the park brake. No doubt others do as well. Of course, good airmanship applies to this action like so many others depending on the circumstances.

https://www.regionflyers.com/wp-content ... na-POH.pdf
The POH to me, is a starting point, not anywhere conclusive, on airmanship.

Maybe you feel differently.

Now, if one wants to start up on a crowded ramp, set the brake, and do the run up there, blasting the planes behind them, -- some idiots do this -- maybe the brake will hold. Maybe it won't, Cessna brakes will slip. Or you bang it and careen into another aircraft.

Or, you taxi a long way to a run up area near the runway, brakes get a bit warm, and guess what? They stick, as has been known to happen.

Not a good plan before taking off at gross on a short runway.

So in my humble view, it's better to leave parking brakes -- for parking.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Thu May 16, 2019 2:33 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:22 pm
pelmet wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am

Cessna seems to feel differently when it comes to park brake use for the run-up. Their C172 POH says to set the park brake. No doubt others do as well. Of course, good airmanship applies to this action like so many others depending on the circumstances.

https://www.regionflyers.com/wp-content ... na-POH.pdf
The POH to me, is a starting point, not anywhere conclusive, on airmanship.

Maybe you feel differently.

Now, if one wants to start up on a crowded ramp, set the brake, and do the run up there, blasting the planes behind them, -- some idiots do this -- maybe the brake will hold. Maybe it won't, Cessna brakes will slip. Or you bang it and careen into another aircraft.

Or, you taxi a long way to a run up area near the runway, brakes get a bit warm, and guess what? They stick, as has been known to happen.

Not a good plan before taking off at gross on a short runway.

So in my humble view, it's better to leave parking brakes -- for parking.
I agree with your post and in most cases use the toe brakes as you recommend on the variety of light aircraft that I fly. However, in my opinion, there are rare cases where setting the park brake for the run-up may be preferable. In addition, you have mentioned a few scenarios(and there are many more) that can be encountered which is where good judgement on the part of the pilot comes in. In my earlier post, I was simply showing that for parking brakes, the blanket statement of "They weren't designed to hold the aircraft during a run up" was not the opinion of a major manufacturer of light aircraft.

Looks like Beech feels the same way....

http://salt.aero/wp-content/uploads/201 ... ch-A23.pdf
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by PilotDAR » Thu May 16, 2019 7:56 pm

Personally I'm not a real fan of parking brakes for anything but parking. They aren't called run-up brakes after all. :wink:

Exactly. They weren't designed to hold the aircraft during a run up.
Just to be clear:
Sec. 23.735

Brakes.

There must be brakes that are adequate to--
(a) Prevent the airplane from rolling on a paved runway with takeoff power on the critical engine
I'm still not a fan of relying on parking brakes, if there is any other possible option for restraining the plane - but they are supposed to work!

The parking brake may hold while applied, but the hold effect can bleed off, as the master cylinder leaks past the valve a little - it doesn't take much. If I had to leave a plane parked on the parking brake, it would only be long enough to go and find chocks. I would never leave it that way, and leave the airport.

Interestingly, I found that the wrong brakes had been installed on an airplane I bought, as they would not hold the wheels locked at full power. In fairness, the power had been increased from 150 to 180 HP, but still, with full toe effort, the wheels would still creep. I did some research. The plane had C 150 brake calipers. I installed C 182 brake calipers, with bigger pistons, and it held very nicely. So, it's one of the things I check for with engine upgrades and wheel size increases, will the brakes still hold the plane at full power?

The greater risk is during powder snow operations. I never use the brakes, other than to quickly lock a main wheel for a pivot turn if needed, I don't want to warm the discs. I've had a few too many occasions before this discipline where powder accumulated on the disc, and froze, locking the main wheels(s). It's not so much a problem if you're landing back onto snow covered/grass/ice runways, but a big problem if you're headed for pavement. I always watched the left main spin down after takeoff, in the hope that spinning down slowly meant that neither wheel would freeze solid. But, just in case, when arriving to the paved runway (usually Muskoka), I'd bounce each mainwheel off the pavement to assure it spun up, or snapped loose, before committing to a landing. I'm aware of a few pilots who have landed with a mainwheel frozen solid, and either burned the tire off, or had trouble staying on the runway. I've had a few occasions where my bouncing a main off was the sharp snap which told me that the wheel had been frozen. When I used to fly off the ice on wheels a lot, I would carry those little bottles of antifreeze, to pour over a brake if I needed to. I haven't ruined a tire yet, though would have a few times, were I not have been careful.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by pelmet » Thu May 16, 2019 9:25 pm

Thanks for the great info. To summarize, the parking brake is in fact designed to hold during an normal engine run-up and more power. But we seem to agree that there can be situations where this may not in fact work and therefore tend to manually apply brakes during the run-up.

It is nice to get good, accurate information.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by ReserveTank » Fri May 17, 2019 12:56 am

I can only assume that there is a before takeoff checklist. What is the crew doing with the PB set after this checklist is done? It's a huge no-no along with reconfiguration of flaps, spoilers (yes I know, not on this airplane), and trim after the checklist has been completed. Maybe there is no takeoff warning in this aircraft, but can someone weigh in on whether or not there is at least a light for the PB?
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 pm

There is no annunciation, warning horn or any method on the 1900 that tells you that the parking brake is applied. It's not a transport category aircraft.

I'm glad we have a bunch of 172 captains discussing parking brake procedures on a large twin turboprop. Especially, procrdures that are contrary to the AFM. Thanks PilotDAR for pointing out the certification standard.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by PilotDAR » Fri May 17, 2019 10:00 pm

Especially, procrdures that are contrary to the AFM.
Is a valid point. There have been cases where I have been the PF in a multi turbo prop, where the procedure is to apply the parking brake for engines running operations. I don't like the fact that the procedure is written that way, but, I don't have to like everything. So, I'll follow the procedure, but I still guard the toe brakes, and monitor outside for possible movement, as though I do not trust the parking brakes.

I remember doing ground runs on a G1000 Caravan. It had synthetic vision, so as I sat still on the runway, while the avionics tech did whatever he was doing, I, of course intended that the plane not move. I was spooked, when out the of corner of my eye, the runway strips on the synthetic vision were creeping, it seemed that the plane was creeping. Out of instinct, I applied more pressure on the pedals.

The plane was not creeping at all, it was the slight GPS variations moving the synthetic vision strips around a foot or so, but it was enough to tingle my spidy senses that the plane was creeping.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by Diadem » Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am

I'm not sure how any of the talk about GA aircraft doing run-ups is relevant...In the 1900, setting the parking brake for engine starts is pretty much essential; very few people have the leg strength and stamina to hold the brakes for the duration of the start and after-start checks. The parking brake is also definitely strong enough to hold the aircraft in place while doing run-ups, in my experience up to about 60% torque. A huge amount of power would have been required to taxi the aircraft with the brake fully set, let alone actually take off. It's entirely on the crew for not ensuring they were configured properly for departure, and for continuing the takeoff when there was an obvious problem.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat May 18, 2019 9:42 am

Easy solution: remove parking brake from aircraft!

Kidding aside, the T-38 doesn’t have a parking brake and there is enough residual thrust at idle to get her going pretty good, even in high-ish DA. It was a pain in the butt but it was a good calves workout every flight!l, especially when we had to hold short for a while.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by co-joe » Sat May 18, 2019 11:15 am

A big thing in 2 pilot ops is to communicate park brake position with transfer of control on the ground, just like you verbalise autopilot settings, ATC instructions, when you transfer control in flight.

Short of the runway I always say "park brake set". I never use the park brake to comply with a line up and wait clearance (ie no PB on the runway), and if it's set and I hand over control I say : "park brake set, you have control".

One thing that pisses me off though is that we don't have park brake on the before takeoff checklist. It's up to me to develop my own flow to not forget it.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by youhavecontrol » Sat May 18, 2019 11:30 am

Diadem wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am
I'm not sure how any of the talk about GA aircraft doing run-ups is relevant...
GA aircraft have park brakes too. Some pilots use them during things like the run-up, but some pilots don't. Apparently it's a divisive issue.
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