Lets just dump some fuel

[pelmet]

Occurrence Summary:
A Royal Australian Air Force Spartan C27J, flight ASY636, was participating in a multi aircraft
mission en route from KTCM (Mc Chord AFB, Tacoma, WA) to PACD (Cold Bay, AK). While in
Canadian airspace, the flight reported to ATC that they were returning to KTCM after dumping fuel
southeast of Tofino, BC. There was no emergency; the mission had just been aborted. ATC did not
know where, when, or how much fuel was dumped.

[AuxBatOn]

And, what is the issue?

[pelmet]

And, what is the issue?

Most pilots will advise ATC when fuel dumping is required. Someone like yourself may not be happy to pass 1000 feet underneath some guy just dumping fuel, especially when no emergency existed as one was never declared in this case.

This is likely why it is considered to be an incident by the TSB.

[Rockie]

If there was no emergency why dump fuel? The stats sheet on it says it can land at max takeoff weight and landing distance wouldn't be a problem at McCord. Maybe it was an un-commanded or inadvertent fuel dump that they got under control but didn't have the gas to complete the flight so returned to McCord. In any event nobody dumps gas for no reason.

[GyvAir]

From the CADORS:

Date Entered: 2015-09-01
Narrative:
A Royal Australian Air Force Alenia C-27J (ASY636) from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, WA (KTCM) to Cold Bay, AK (PACD) on a tandem mission returned to KTCM after dumping fuel SE of Tofino, BC non-directional beacon (NDB) (YAZ). No emergency, reason for returning was abortion of the mission due to tandem aircraft not departing. No impact on operations.
O.P.I.: General Aviation Further Action Required: Yes

[AuxBatOn]

And, what is the issue?

Most pilots will advise ATC when fuel dumping is required. Someone like yourself may not be happy to pass 1000 feet underneath some guy just dumping fuel, especially when no emergency existed as one was never declared in this case.

This is likely why it is considered to be an incident by the TSB.

Please explain the effects of dumping fuel with an aircraft 1000ft below you.

I had fuel (at 500 lbs a minute) directly sprayed directly into one of my intakes. It is not dangerous, unless th roman candles are lit, in which case you just deselect afterburner to out the fire out.

[Rockie]

From the CADORS:

Date Entered: 2015-09-01
Narrative:
A Royal Australian Air Force Alenia C-27J (ASY636) from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, WA (KTCM) to Cold Bay, AK (PACD) on a tandem mission returned to KTCM after dumping fuel SE of Tofino, BC non-directional beacon (NDB) (YAZ). No emergency, reason for returning was abortion of the mission due to tandem aircraft not departing. No impact on operations.
O.P.I.: General Aviation Further Action Required: Yes

So no emergency or unintentional fuel dump, just a cancellation of a mission. No reason to dump gas that I can see so something is missing. The fuel vaporizes within seconds but is still in the atmosphere, might have been nice if they did it off their own coast...

[AuxBatOn]

Above 5K and nothing his the ground... Far worst things happen each day for the emvironment. A couple thousands pounds of JP-8 won't do much of a difference, if any.

[GyvAir]

In the grand scheme of things, as they say, the effects would be pretty much immeasurably small. More fuel and other fluids likely leaked onto driveways on the continent as I was typing this than came out in that fuel dump.
It's the optics of what sounds like someone dumping fuel "just because" that that don't look good. As Rockie says though, there's a piece of information missing that would explain the full whys of the decision.

[Rockie]

You're right of course Auxbaton, the earth's atmosphere won't spontaneously ignite despite the vaporized fuel in it. Is that a good enough reason by itself to dump fuel? I don't know if the problem still exists but back in the day the hornet's external tanks would over-pressurize and we would vent fuel out the tail. Our solution was to drop the hook to de pressurize the tanks until the internal depleted a bit. We didn't do that to save gas, we just didn't like pouring undiluted jet fuel into the atmosphere for no reason.

[pelmet]

And, what is the issue?

Most pilots will advise ATC when fuel dumping is required. Someone like yourself may not be happy to pass 1000 feet underneath some guy just dumping fuel, especially when no emergency existed as one was never declared in this case.

This is likely why it is considered to be an incident by the TSB.

Please explain the effects of dumping fuel with an aircraft 1000ft below you.

I had fuel (at 500 lbs a minute) directly sprayed directly into one of my intakes. It is not dangerous, unless th roman candles are lit, in which case you just deselect afterburner to out the fire out.

Aux Bat On,

I am not sure if you are serious. I was in an open cockpit airplane today. The last thing I need is some idiot jettisoning fuel for no reason and making no advisory thinking to himself "I had fuel (at 500 lbs a minute) directly sprayed directly into one of my intakes. It is not dangerous, unless the roman candles are lit, in which case you just deselect afterburner to out the fire out" and not realizing that there are other aircraft types out there.

You may be fine with fuel being dumped into your intake but most prudent pilots in the civilian world would prefer to be out of the way.

A suggestion if you have to abort your mission and want to dump fuel. Advise ATC and let them clear you into whatever area is appropriate to dump your fuel.

[AuxBatOn]

You're right of course Auxbaton, the earth's atmosphere won't spontaneously ignite despite the vaporized fuel in it. Is that a good enough reason by itself to dump fuel? I don't know if the problem still exists but back in the day the hornet's external tanks would over-pressurize and we would vent fuel out the tail. Our solution was to drop the hook to de pressurize the tanks until the internal depleted a bit. We didn't do that to save gas, we just didn't like pouring undiluted jet fuel into the atmosphere for no reason.

Still exists. I drop the hook, but to conserve fuel, not the environment.

[Rockie]

You're right of course Auxbaton, the earth's atmosphere won't spontaneously ignite despite the vaporized fuel in it. Is that a good enough reason by itself to dump fuel? I don't know if the problem still exists but back in the day the hornet's external tanks would over-pressurize and we would vent fuel out the tail. Our solution was to drop the hook to de pressurize the tanks until the internal depleted a bit. We didn't do that to save gas, we just didn't like pouring undiluted jet fuel into the atmosphere for no reason.

Still exists. I drop the hook, but to conserve fuel, not the environment.

Times have changed then - we used to care about the environment and anybody who happened to be underneath us at the time.

[AuxBatOn]

Aux Bat On,

I am not sure if you are serious. I was in an open cockpit airplane today. The last thing I need is some idiot jettisoning fuel for no reason and making no advisory thinking to himself

You may be fine with fuel being dumped into your intake but most prudent pilots in the civilian world would prefer to be out of the way.

A suggestion if you have to abort your mission and want to dump fuel. Advise ATC and let them clear you into whatever area is appropriate to dump your fuel.

If someone dumps fuel 1000ft above you, I'd argue you would never notice, other than seeing the fuel coming out of the dump port. That's if a C-27 flies at the same altitudes an open cockpit flies in and around BC... Should he have told ATC? Yes (the reports leads me to believe he did). Is it a big deal? Absolutely not.

Rockie: Have I said I don't care about the environment? Nooe. I said I drop the hook to stop venting so I can have more gas in my tanks.

[pelmet]

Aux Bat On,

I am not sure if you are serious. I was in an open cockpit airplane today. The last thing I need is some idiot jettisoning fuel for no reason and making no advisory thinking to himself

You may be fine with fuel being dumped into your intake but most prudent pilots in the civilian world would prefer to be out of the way.

A suggestion if you have to abort your mission and want to dump fuel. Advise ATC and let them clear you into whatever area is appropriate to dump your fuel.

If someone dumps fuel 1000ft above you, I'd argue you would never notice, other than seeing the fuel coming out of the dump port. That's if a C-27 flies at the same altitudes an open cockpit flies in and around BC... Should he have told ATC? Yes (the reports leads me to believe he did). Is it a big deal? Absolutely not.

We are not talking anymore about if a C-27 flies at the same altitude as an open cockpit aircraft. We are talking about your question of "Please explain the effects of dumping fuel with an aircraft 1000ft below you." Military aircraft do all kinds of lower level stuff for exercises don't they, right down to the surface, don't they. Don't you? Yes you do.

Your associated statement with the question about the effects of dumping fuel 1,000 feet above an aircraft was how much fuel you have had go into your intake suggesting to me that you have not considered other aircraft types. Now you are saying without any evidence I suspect, that you feel that it would not be noticed.

And you are also now saying that you feel the report leads you to believe that he told ATC. Well, why is there a report saying "ATC did not know where, when, or how much fuel was dumped".?

I hope you don't come up with similar excuses/answers based on nothing in your debriefings after a mission.

It is obvious from the original posts about your feelings about this type of action. I realize that the likelyhood of this action causing difficulty for another aircraft was small, but unless it is an emergency fuel dump, just take the time to advise ATC.

My only experience of a situation similar to this was a few months ago. I was in a C172 and a Korean 747 on departure had a gear retraction problem and had to dump fuel. ATC broadcast multiple times on frequency about the location and altitude of the aircraft dumping fuel on the approach frequency and on 121.5. If I remember correctly, the 747 was at 6000 feet and I was at about 5500 feet but my route of flight was about 10 miles to the east. I did consider heading over that way in coordination with ATC to fly 1000 feet above him(he was in a hold) to get some cool pictures but did not do it. Maybe next time.

[Siddley Hawker]

They're Australian, probably practising for a F-111 dump and burn.

[rxl]

The question is - why dump fuel if you don't have to?
The Ohio ANG fact sheet on the Spartan says max take off weight and max landing weight are the same at 30.5 kilos.

[kev994]

Most C130H fact sheets that I've seen list max takeoff and max landing as both 155K, which is for normal ops, but you can takeoff up to 175, so I would take a fact sheet as gospel. That said I'm not going to dump 20 k of fuel for no apparent reason.

[rxl]

They're Australian, probably practising for a F-111 dump and burn.

The Spartan seems like a cool airplane, but it ain't no Aardvark...

[Braun]

From an ATC standpoint it is a big deal because it blocks 6000 ft below and 3000 ft and above of the altitude at which the a/c dumped and a significant amount laterally for 15 minutes.

[AuxBatOn]

From an ATC standpoint it is a big deal because it blocks 6000 ft below and 3000 ft and above of the altitude at which the a/c dumped and a significant amount laterally for 15 minutes.

Procedurally for ATC, it may be a big deal. In reality, it isn't.

[Braun]

From an ATC standpoint it is a big deal because it blocks 6000 ft below and 3000 ft and above of the altitude at which the a/c dumped and a significant amount laterally for 15 minutes.

Procedurally for ATC, it may be a big deal. In reality, it isn't.

Depends who's reality you are looking at. My reality it is a big because I need to block the airspace like I said and when you work in an airspace with a 25nm range and a max alt of 13000-16000ft it really disrupts everything. Advise ATC and we will get you dumping fuel in no time in the appropriate areas. I had one a/c dump and tell me after and it really disrupted the flow at the airport at which I work. I understand as a pilot it changes nothing and I'm sure it isn't very dangerous but there are implications that can lead to useless airspace blockages.

[AuxBatOn]

Or just do it and don't tell ATC...

[Rockie]

Or just do it and don't tell ATC...

No...don't.

Also don't pour raw fuel out into the atmosphere unless it is essential for the safe recovery of the aircraft.

If they're teaching this kind of stuff in Cold Lake these days it is wrong headed and irresponsible for a number of reasons. Realizing the military is not constrained by the CAR's, this provision is in there for a reason and I would be surprised if CFP 100 or more specific group orders don't contain the equivalent.

BTW, "appropriate measures" includes advising ATC.

Fuel Dumping Vidange de carburant

602.30 No person shall jettison fuel from an aircraft in flight unless

(a) it is necessary to do so in order to ensure aviation safety; and

(b) all appropriate measures are taken to minimize danger to human life and damage to the environment, insofar as the circumstances permit.

[rxl]

Or just do it and don't tell ATC...

I really hope that you are kidding with a comment like that.