Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:53 am

Johnny#5 wrote:Haha, this thread has got the old folks all fired up.....
The "old folks" tend to SEE a runway they land on.....I haven't missed a runway yet.....neither has Cat. What's your point? LOL.
ILLYA
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:10 am

The clue is his reference to " Old folks " Illya.

When Johnnie gets old enough to get a pilots license his brain may have developed a bit more.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
Clodhopper
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:24 pm
Location: Wishing the only ice I saw was in my drinks...

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Clodhopper » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:03 pm

Professional pilots completely losing situational awareness and landing off-runway should be a serious concern to all in aviation in Canada. The fact that people seem to think we are over reacting is far more concerning to me.

On an ILS or any SCDA approach there should be zero discussion as to what to do at minimums. You either see it or you don't. This should not have happened.
---------- ADS -----------
  
a.k.a. "Big Foot"

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:16 pm

Exactly clodhopper, and even more concerning is it happened in what should be Canadas top level carrier.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:45 pm

I'd like to know which McDonalds the crew has managed to find work at, so I can avoid it.
I don't know why this is being taken so lightly? This crew should be fired on the spot. And don't start the "you weren't there.."bull shit! Everybody on board that flight could have very well ended up at a funeral Their own!
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Johnny#5
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Johnny#5 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:30 pm

:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by HiFlyChick » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:27 pm

Clodhopper wrote:...On an ILS or any SCDA approach there should be zero discussion as to what to do at minimums. You either see it or you don't. This should not have happened.
So true - all decisions as to what to do should be made on the ground. I can recall calling an overshoot and just as I pushed power the F/O called that she had the lights. I had a brief moment where my mind went "Should I...?" but it was quickly squashed by the thought of "We've started the overshoot - we go around!" It's comforting to have a single decision to make at a single time and then act on it with no second guessing yourself. I'm a big fan of "Here's the plan, no waffling, no maybe's..."
---------- ADS -----------
  

jet a1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 401
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 12:35 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by jet a1 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:40 pm

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by jet a1 on Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:02 pm

At least they'll have a "tell us a time" story for their upcoming AC interview.
Now, now, now you be careful or you will be A- hole number three on Avcanada. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

TSB Tasker
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:09 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by TSB Tasker » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:07 am

Hello,

I am the TSB Investigator-in-Charge of this occurrence.

If anyone has any information they think would be valuable to the investigation, please feel free to email me directly at: ewan.tasker@tsb.gc.ca

I may not be able to respond directly to speculation or conjecture but I would certainly appreciate your input.

Take care,

Ewan Tasker.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by TSB Tasker on Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

#37
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by #37 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:51 pm

Hello Ewan, Cat Driver, Ilya and the gang have it all sewn up. Take a two week holiday.

:D
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:31 pm

#37 wrote:Hello Ewan, Cat Driver, Ilya and the gang have it all sewn up. Take a two week holiday.

:D

On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya

PS
When are we going to crack down on this crap? This is not a clapped out Navajo from Armpit Airways. This was a modern transport category aircraft, flown by two trained pilots for our flag carrier. This should not happen. I don't buy "accidents happen", and neither should anybody. #37 seems to think a missed approach wasn't called for? That's the ONLY tune Cat and I are singing. Are we wrong? Were there extenuating circumstances? Perhaps they were tired? Maybe their paycheques are too small?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:44 pm






On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya
That was a " Landing " ?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

esp803

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by esp803 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:19 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote: This is not a clapped out Navajo from Armpit Airways.
Should that really matter in this case? I'd still fire my P2F pilots at Chisel air for doing this.

I do agree with the rest though.

E
---------- ADS -----------
  

#37
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by #37 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:12 pm

Prove you wrong, nope. Been around long enough to know a few dudes that have landed off the landing Surface. When the facts came out... guess what? Everyone went "ohhhh crap!, I can see how that went down!"

Perhaps that is the case, perhaps not, but with the attitudes some of the Avcanada gurus have we will never know, it's already black and white... hopefully Ewan here understands what a grey world aviation can be. Maybe then we will learn something.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:32 pm

I'm always interested in learning something new 37.

What unavoidable circumstances could have caused that crew to land short of the runway after they lost sight of it.

Or should we wait acouple of years for Ewan to figure it out for us?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

#37
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by #37 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:01 pm

How would I know?

I wasn't there.

Didn't do that approach.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:22 pm

One thing that has always pissed me off about this industry is pilot's who can't just say "they pooched it..." Pilots always seem to need to be told, "that could have happened to anyone......these guys were victims of circumstances....." Or "let's wait for the report to come out....." A report from even more people who weren't there. Pilots tend to deflect blame, blame anything but themselves or their brothers...
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:41 pm

What I can't figure out is why an airline crew fly's an airplane into the ground rather than follow the missed approach proceedure as published.

Unless the TSB guy in this one was miss quoted this accident was caused by failing to follow the rules.

If the TSB guy was miss quoted someone would have said so by now.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

#37
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:43 am

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by #37 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:49 am

Illya, you will note that "they pooched it" is not an option I've ruled out.

The problem for you Illya, it's usually the least self aware of their own poor skills that are the first to want to go straight to hanging the pilots. That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Pop n Fresh
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:46 am
Location: Freezer.

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Pop n Fresh » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:14 am

Cat Driver wrote:
On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya
That was a " Landing " ?
I think they even ended up on a prepared runway soon after hitting the lights. So... definitely a landing.
Though possibly a "crash" landing.

:smt023
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:47 am

That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,
When you make a statement that is that personal 37 on this forum I believe I have the right under forum rules to ask you what alarm bells you hear regarding my competency and history as a pilot.

Quite frankly it is posters like you sniping from the comfort of anonymity that damages these forums.

So please explain what you mean by alarm bells.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1301
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:22 am

#37 wrote: That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,
You crack me up! Alarm bells are set off because people like Cat and myself have the nerve to criticize an airline crew for sticking one in early, blind, rather than open the taps and go try again? I guarantee Cat, and myself have done as many, or more approaches than any pilot on this forum. All have ended with landings ON the strip, or successful missed approaches. Does this "make alarm bells go off" in your head?
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Johnny#5
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by Johnny#5 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:01 pm

Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

55+
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:49 pm

Re: Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

Post by 55+ » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:02 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
#37 wrote: That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,
You crack me up! Alarm bells are set off because people like Cat and myself have the nerve to criticize an airline crew for sticking one in early, blind, rather than open the taps and go try again? I guarantee Cat, and myself have done as many, or more approaches than any pilot on this forum. All have ended with landings ON the strip, or successful missed approaches. Does this "make alarm bells go off" in your head?
Illya
Airline pilots, hmmmm....... reminds me a few years back with departures YFC RWY 15 and the issues we had with airlines who couldn't stay outside Camp Gagetown. Got to be quite a problem, even joked of having a lighted sign at departure end of runway indicating Turn right or left now!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”