Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

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Rookie50
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Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Rookie50 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:37 am

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings ... TopStories

All feared dead. 150 people. If the link is inaccessible, there is little other info. Crash teams are on the way. Flight was from bachelona to Düsseldorf.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Rudy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:07 am

Weather info? Hopefully not ice again.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:07 am

Germanwings is one of those airlines that combine an all Airbus 320 series fleet with the hiring of only low time pilots through the Lufthansa Cadet program. The captains are upgraded from the pool of First Officers.
This can create a situation where although the two people up front have a combined experience of thousands of hours, all of it, minus 200 hours each, may be on a Fly-by-Wire, stall-proof, overspeed-proof, roll-proof, inverted-proof, high-deck-angle-proof, and low-energy-proof, aircraft that is always taken off with auto-thrust and mostly flown with auto-thrust right into the flare, when ILS autolands are not done. The A-320 series is also an aircraft which has the pretention to overule pilot input, even with the auto-pilot disengaged, as we saw in a recent A321 incident.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by bmc » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:38 am

To go from cruising altitude to crashing is a bit unnerving. RIP to those who lost their lives. Condolences to families.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by cncpc » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:47 am

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... ve-updates

Still unsure if there was a Mayday.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Eric Janson » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:52 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Germanwings is one of those airlines that combine an all Airbus 320 series fleet with the hiring of only low time pilots through the Lufthansa Cadet program. The captains are upgraded from the pool of First Officers.
This can create a situation where although the two people up front have a combined experience of thousands of hours, all of it, minus 200 hours each, may be on a Fly-by-Wire, stall-proof, overspeed-proof, roll-proof, inverted-proof, high-deck-angle-proof, and low-energy-proof, aircraft that is always taken off with auto-thrust and mostly flown with auto-thrust right into the flare, when ILS autolands are not done. The A-320 series is also an aircraft which has the pretention to overule pilot input, even with the auto-pilot disengaged, as we saw in a recent A321 incident.
Gilles - this is way over the top - even for you!

Perhaps you should wait for more information to emerge.

You're also wrong about how airbus fly-by- wire are flown.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Old fella » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:07 am

bmc wrote:To go from cruising altitude to crashing is a bit unnerving. RIP to those who lost their lives. Condolences to families.
Yes for sure and indeed. Unfortunately over on that PPRUNE site every 100 yr old WW2 Battle of Germany vets, basement-dwelling Microsoft Flight Sim drivers, mystics of the church,Retired NORAD Generals, the usual accident investigate TV talking heads etc., etc. are alive and well on probably 15 pages of toilet paper commentary.......

Above it all, very sad to hear and one feels for those affected in this most difficult time in their lives.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:26 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Gilles - this is way over the top - even for you!

Perhaps you should wait for more information to emerge.

You're also wrong about how airbus fly-by- wire are flown.
I did not insinuate or suggest that this had anything to do with current accident, nothing is known yet, nothing I've seen anyway. All I know it that it crashed while in cruise flight.

But Germanwings
Does have an all Airbus 320 series fleet
Does hire only from the Lufthansa Cadet training program
Does only upgrade from the right seat.

And the Airbus Fly by wire aircraft do have protection modes that activate even when the autopilot is disengaged, as long as the aircraft is in normal law, which this recent Lufthansa incident illustrates: http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074. In the Air France 447 incident, the software recognized it no longer knew what was going on, so disconnected the autopilot, went into alternate law and basically handed over the controls to the pilots. In the Lufthansa incident, it did not......
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Eric Janson » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:21 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
I did not insinuate or suggest that this had anything to do with current accident, nothing is known yet, nothing I've seen anyway. All I know it that it crashed while in cruise flight.
So why post at all?
But Germanwings
Does have an all Airbus 320 series fleet
Does hire only from the Lufthansa Cadet training program
Does only upgrade from the right seat.
So do plenty of other Airlines all over the World. So what?
And the Airbus Fly by wire aircraft do have protection modes that activate even when the autopilot is disengaged, as long as the aircraft is in normal law, which this recent Lufthansa incident illustrates: http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074. In the Air France 447 incident, the software recognized it no longer knew what was going on, so disconnected the autopilot, went into alternate law and basically handed over the controls to the pilots. In the Lufthansa incident, it did not......
Again since it is unclear what happened how is this relevant?
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:19 pm

So if I posted the enroute weather at the time at the location of the crash, you would write here and tell me that we don't know as yet if the weather is related, so why post it ?
Would I be insinuating that the weather was related to the accident ?
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Heliian » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:24 pm

Very sad and tragic indeed but very peculiar that no call was made. I'm thinking hypoxia during the climb on autopilot, aircraft then reaches set altitude and ap disengages causing the aircraft to descend until ground contact with all crew and pax incapacitated. Other hypoxia incidents have usually led to the aircraft continuing until fuel is exhausted but I don't know what the ap settings and controls are like on this aircraft. The boxes will give us more.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by boeingboy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:54 pm

Maybe they wanted to go to 34,000' and entered 3400 into the VS mode by accident?

Something similar to Air Inter.



But Germanwings
Does have an all Airbus 320 series fleet
Does hire only from the Lufthansa Cadet training program
Does only upgrade from the right seat.
That may be true, but reports are that the Captain had been with both German wings and Lufthansa for 10 years.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Rookie50 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:10 pm

Wasn't at cruise altitude more than a few moments. Note steady heading and GS all the way down.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GWI ... L/tracklog

Forgive me for speculation -- I'm not -- but what would cause an (uncommanded) descent with AP still engaged presumably (steady heading and vertical descent rate)

If commanded -- why no radio call or turn away from mountains?
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by hamstandard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:56 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:So if I posted the enroute weather at the time at the location of the crash, you would write here and tell me that we don't know as yet if the weather is related, so why post it ?
Would I be insinuating that the weather was related to the accident ?
Hmmm.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Prodriver » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:01 pm

Rookie50 wrote:Wasn't at cruise altitude more than a few moments. Note steady heading and GS all the way down.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GWI ... L/tracklog
That news does not look to good. Very stable decent and no radio calls??
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by floydfrank » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:36 pm

I may be out of whack, but is it remotely possible that onboard systems were hacked from a source on the ground? You guys have much more knowledge than I, the biggest aircraft I have flown is a -8 300, no fly by wire in that machine.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by GyvAir » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:49 pm

floydfrank wrote: is it remotely possible that onboard systems were hacked from a source on the ground?
I'm pretty sure that within the 588 pages of MH370 discussion on PPRUNE, that topic was generally beaten to death, every which way. (I know that happened to be a 777, not an Airbus)
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by floydfrank » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:00 pm

I can well imagine that the topic of hijack hacking has been beat to a pulp. I don't know how much will be gleaned off of the flight recorders, the pictures of the debris were appalling. Some things seem very out to lunch on this, particularly the relatively steady state of descent, and the lack of communication.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:27 pm

hamstandard wrote: Guaranteed that the first thing Gilles did was see if there was P2F. If so, then he would have closed the investigation already.

Must have been disappointed eh Gilles.
Germanwings, the Lufthansa low cost subsidiary, P2F ? Europe's pilot profession would be at rock bottom if that were the case. I'm afraid you are confusing issues.....
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by pianokeys » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:32 pm

GyvAir wrote:
floydfrank wrote: is it remotely possible that onboard systems were hacked from a source on the ground?
I'm pretty sure that within the 588 pages of MH370 discussion on PPRUNE, that topic was generally beaten to death, every which way. (I know that happened to be a 777, not an Airbus)
If 588 pages is what it was on PPRUNE, imagine A.net. Or worse, Reddit. Christ.

I hate speculating an accident before the FDR/CVRs are found, and before the investigation report is published. Let's all just sit and wait a few years, and we'll know exactly what happened.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Alberta_x51 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:17 pm

Three things seem to be relevant.

First, not mentioned in many of the reports that they selected 7700 at the top of the descent.

Second, the crew don't appear to have been conscious after that as there was no radio
and no change in heading or rate of descent till it hit the deck flying.
That seems to indicate the machine was flying itself.

Third, it is one of the oldest models flying.

Now to see what the recorders say which might be tomorrow.

What's the bet that Airbus will figure out a new way for airbus to take over control from
unconscious pilots and land at the nearest airport.

Then we can expect calls for more capability for drone pilots to take command and fly it remotely.

Meanwhile, another crop of 200 hour wonders get to be airbus pilots.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by boeingboy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:34 pm

First, not mentioned in many of the reports that they selected 7700 at the top of the descent.
Did they? I haven't heard that. There is lots of confusing info right now. If they did - that changes things though.
Second, the crew don't appear to have been conscious after that as there was no radio
and no change in heading or rate of descent till it hit the deck flying.
That seems to indicate the machine was flying itself.
Not really. There have been lots of accidents - especially lately - where there was no call from the crew. Doesn't mean much right now.
Third, it is one of the oldest models flying.
Doesn't mean jack


Not a whole lot to speculate on at this point - we'll just have to wait.
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by boeingboy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:47 pm

For the bus drivers here.....any comments on my last thought?

1) Could it be the crew wanted to descend to 34,000' and somehow put in 3400 in the VS mode? Similar to the Air Inter crash?

2) If they had a rapid decompression at 38,000' would 3500 fpm be the approximate rate for an emergency descent?
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by cncpc » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:52 pm

Even power seems to be controlled on the descent, not a wide variation on the groundspeed all the way down. Don't know the airplane, but it seems that there has to be some throttle adjustment for those numbers to come out?
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Re: Germanwings A320 Plane Crashes in Southern France

Post by Eric Janson » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:15 am

boeingboy wrote:For the bus drivers here.....any comments on my last thought?

1) Could it be the crew wanted to descend to 34,000' and somehow put in 3400 in the VS mode? Similar to the Air Inter crash?

2) If they had a rapid decompression at 38,000' would 3500 fpm be the approximate rate for an emergency descent?
1) No. I've never done this and have never seen or heard of anyone else doing this.

The Air Inter crash was the result of a failure to realise the aircraft was descending with Flight Path Angle mode instead of vertical speed mode.

2) The A320 is capable of more than twice that rate of descent in an emergency descent.

An Emergency descent with possible structural damage requires present speed to be maintained. This will give a much lower rate of descent.
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