Air Canada Accident in YHZ

[CFM Symphony]

Accidents happen in other areas of the globe, answers are sometimes shared with the public within days. Sometimes, within hours. Not so in Canada. TSB is in the business of dragging their feet.
Illya

Would you prefer to read about this accident by the next time your favourite weekly tabloid comes out? Have some respect for those who are committed to ensuring that reports are researched properly and compiled in a subjective and unbiased fashion. I know you are used to fast food and instant gratification in this century, but this is in my opinion not the way air investigations are to be conducted.

[FICU]

It's a little different when the TSB has good tape, data, and the account from both pilots. It should not take a year or more to let the public know what caused the crash. Look at the NTSB response to the Korean CFIT in San Francisco a few years ago. Sure take a year or so to release the bilingual detailed report but if they know, without a doubt, the cause after 2 weeks then they should release that information to speed up the process for remedial action and to educate.

[CFM Symphony]

2 weeks

I'm sorry, how long has it been?

[Doug Moore]

Tough crowd here … for all you posters who are also pilots, let’s try to remember … “there but for the Grace of God, go I”. Also, it probably bears consideration that the two pilots involved may very well be members of this forum. They have just survived what can only be described as a life-altering event; and they are most likely hurting. I believe we should try to avoid second-guessing what happened – the facts as they are found by the TSB will come out in due course.

Having said that, my recollection of Rwy 05 in YHZ is that it was, and still remains today a runway waiting for an accident to happen. As I recall (been retired 7 years), 05 has a hump about 1000’ down the runway and the terrain gently slopes in both directions down the runway and moreso in the opposite direction towards the approach end and down an embankment into a small gulley/valley. No precision approach. Particularly at night, even on a clear night, the “visual” illusion/perception on final approach of this terrain sloping up to the runway and then down beyond the hump can easily trick the unaware into believing that you are higher than you should be. So the conditions for a trap are all set. Night time, instrument approach, no flight path guidance other than the non-precision FPA (Flight Path Angle) and possibly VASIS/PAPI, break-out of the clouds and you’re into the short strokes, the transition from instruments to the visual picture (when most likely you are already well below 1000’ AGL) can lead you to believe that “Holy Crap, I’m high!” with a natural inclination to increase rate of descent until the realization seconds later becomes “Holy crap, I’m low!” and before you can say WTF, it’s a “Gotcha”!

I’m not for an instant second-guessing what happened to the pilots involved in this accident, what I am saying is that I was always very wary of an approach to Rwy 05 in YHZ, particularly so at night. I believe in 2015, and have believed for many years now, that here is no need, no necessity and no excuse for non-precision approach aids at airports, particularly international airports. Every runway that has an instrument approach should be served by a precision approach. I hope the TSB has some recommendations to rectify what I consider to be unsatisfactory instrument/environmental conditions as they presently exist for Rwy 05.

I wish these two pilots – and their families – well. They have survived a very traumatic event.

[sportingrifle]

+1 Well said.

I too flew that approach on dark ugly snowy and windy nights and remember the peering thru the windshield at the blurry lights way off to the side. I will patiently wait for the report to hopefully reduce the chance of me following in their footsteps.

sportingrifle

[FICU]

I'm sorry, how long has it been?

Your point being?

I used 2 weeks as an example as opposed to 1 or 2 years. It could be tomorrow or 3 weeks or 2 months...

[MrWings]

Screw the public if they want answers now. All of us would rather a well documented, calculated, and thought out report that's correct and detailed. If it takes years then that's what it takes.

I don't want years. If it is something that urgent and needs to be addressed promptly then that's the type of response it takes. Protecting an airline or pilots should be the least of concern. Avoiding loss of life should be top priority. I think it was pure luck that no one was killed. I wouldn't bet on the same results should this happen again.

[MrWings]

It's a little different when the TSB has good tape, data, and the account from both pilots. It should not take a year or more to let the public know what caused the crash. Look at the NTSB response to the Korean CFIT in San Francisco a few years ago. Sure take a year or so to release the bilingual detailed report but if they know, without a doubt, the cause after 2 weeks then they should release that information to speed up the process for remedial action and to educate.

This.

[MrWings]

Having said that, my recollection of Rwy 05 in YHZ is that it was, and still remains today a runway waiting for an accident to happen.

If that is truly the case then that demands immediate response.

[GyvAir]

Someone has posted some good aerial photos of the scene over on pprune, around page 10 of the thread.
Judging by those marks on the hillside, it must have been one hell of a ride.

Had to laugh at one "aviation expert" being quoted in regards to the power lines being severed:

“t’s a good possibility the approach lights and the runway lights would have been extinguished, which would have made their perception of their landing considerably changed,” he said. “Those cues would be gone.”

[Lost in Saigon]

The photos are from the TSB/RCMP Flickr page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada ... 940541286/

[Liquid Charlie]

The flying public should demand quick answers to this. There may be a system or organization problem that, if delaying in correction, is putting more people at risk every day.

If the TSB sees something that concerns them about over all safety they will address it immediately -- I'm not sure why people think they should have instant access to crash investigation -- really what does it mean to johnQ public except satisfy his or her own curiosity -- I for one like the existing system . The TSB feels their mandate is to get it right and be objective and impartial and this can't be achieved if once the public gets it's hands on unconfirmed details --

We as a group roll our eyes at the media and how they report the news and the inaccuracies which leaves to public confusion - just look at the posts here from pilots and the amount of confusion there is between our own group - as in all accidents the results are pretty obvious but how and why it happened is never that simple ---

[av8ts]

… “there but for the Grace of God, go I”

I agree with most of your post except this part. I really hope there are no professional pilots who believe the only thing preventing a crash is some imaginary superhero up in the sky.

[Rowdy]

… “there but for the Grace of God, go I”

I agree with most of your post except this part. I really hope there are no professional pilots who believe the only thing preventing a crash is some imaginary superhero up in the sky.

That is not at all what that quote represents…

[single_swine_herder]

… “there but for the Grace of God, go I”

I agree with most of your post except this part. I really hope there are no professional pilots who believe the only thing preventing a crash is some imaginary superhero up in the sky.

Perhaps not Politically Correct to relate this true story.

When I was teaching a foreign student (from Lebanon I believe,) we were doing spin recoveries. It took several lessons and extensive briefings to get him to cease the practise of taking his hands and feet off the controls, allowing the aircraft to recover due to inherent design stability because he would tell me in the cockpit "I will survive if Allah wills it."

Yeah ..... Right ....... that gave me a warm & fuzzy level of comfort.

He answered the call to arms by Yasser Arrafat in roughly 1975 and I never heard anything more.

[CpnCrunch]

No precision approach.

Well it has an LPV approach, and if the plane had had some 21st century technology we might not have been reading about this accident.

[AuxBatOn]

LPV is not a precision approach, although the usual minima are close to usual precision minima...

[Jet Jockey]

LPV is not a precision approach, although the usual minima are close to usual precision minima...

There is a debate about that...

I have been to 3 recurrents in the last year and our instructor tells us that the FAA consider the LPV now to be a precision approach because it is an angular type approach like the ILS.

TC will not be far behind too if they didn't already decide so.

[CID]

A precision approach is defined as one that has a vertical as well as a lateral component. Recently, some dink at TC has been trying to change that definition because the vertical component on an LPV isn't as accurate as an ILS glideslope.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... -6522.html

[55+]

LPV is not a precision approach, although the usual minima are close to usual precision minima...

Not quite. WAAS(LPV) - Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance is designed in accordance with TP-308 Volume 3(Precision Approach Procedure Construction) and is identified as such in Chapter One. The final approach being a sloped procedure utilized the same OCS critera for ILS Caterory 1 landing minima. The final approach obstacle clearance surface primary area is 400ft each side of precision centerline at the POFA(precision obstacle free area) which is 200ft back from runway threshold. That's very narrow for obstacle clearance. Runway 05 at Halifax has a WAAS(LPV) and is a precision approach procedure.

WJ has approved RNAV(RNP) to the same runway at Halifax however I do not know to what RNP value they are approved for but RNP 0.10 is in the DA 713 - 250 HAT range.

WAAS and RNAV(RNP) have been around for a few years and if you have access to AIRAC you will see more and more WAAS(LPV) IAPs are being published.

Welcome to 2015............