Air Canada Accident in YHZ

[bcflyer]

Do the 320's have GPS? I heard some don't but I can't see how this is true. A GPS/VNAV approach would be better than a step down Localizer. No?

The majority of the AC 319/320 fleet do not have GPS. They would have been doing a plain old Loc approach. It would have been flown as a CDA as opposed to the old step down technique but other than that they would have had no vertical guidance.

[floydfrank]

Non-prec approach in 3/4 mile vis., things that make you go hmm.

[FICU]

I wonder how much fuel was onboard?

With shredded wings and separated engine, no fire, after holding with a very close alternate, and the fact the gear separated on the first hit... did the jet crash land under control or fall out of the sky?

[MrWings]

I was expecting an announcement today from Transport Canada stating that, in response to his incident, effective immediately, all runways handling commercial aircraft will have their thresholds extended 1100 feet.

[MrWings]

As has been said, a miracle no one was killed. This is not a shrug your shoulders oh well type incident.

[55+]

Do the 320's have GPS? I heard some don't but I can't see how this is true. A GPS/VNAV approach would be better than a step down Localizer. No?

The majority of the AC 319/320 fleet do not have GPS. They would have been doing a plain old Loc approach. It would have been flown as a CDA as opposed to the old step down technique but other than that they would have had no vertical guidance.

Question if I may. You indicate the apch is flown with a Constant Descent Angle(CDA) but no vertical guidance displayed(software calculation on the FMS), so how is CDA accomplished.

Thanks

[bcflyer]

It's flown using a Flight Path Angle. The FPA is published in the approach plates. You select FPA (instead of VS) and at the beacon you dial in the required angle. The procedure at MDA is the same as any other NP approach.

[Meddler]

As it the constant decent angle question, the applicable plates have alt vs distance published, meaning all one should have to do is fly a certain ground speed and decent angle. In my experience it's harder than it sounds, most folks end up high and have to chop powers to make the spot. although I would have thought an airbus would have some fancy stuff to help. I would have expected a gps too, mind you.

"I was expecting an announcement today from Transport Canada stating that, in response to his incident, effective immediately, all runways handling commercial aircraft will be extended 1100 feet. "

....you might be closer to the truth than you d think. Off by 600'

[BTD]

I can't speak for the Airbus, although I'm pretty sure it is the same, but on the emj there is a FPA mode that you select as your vertical mode. At the faf you dial in the required FPA off the plates and fly the airplane to the mda plus 50 feet, all the while monitoring your vertical path. There are no charts to compare g/s vs distance etc. The airplane will fly the FPA based off the information from the air data computers.

I far prefer an ILS or an rnav (the aircraft plans vertical guidance regardless of whether it is Lnav only or not). But the FPA method is far better than a step down and chop and drop. Not a good idea in a large jet.

[floydfrank]

As has been said, a miracle no one was killed. This is not a shrug your shoulders oh well type incident.

AC has it's share of horseshoes. I recall an AC RJ in CYFC that ended up a couple thousand feet off the runway c/L wrapped around a tree - no fatalities.

[oldncold]

My question. ( Im not a 705 pilot). Is in that vis would it be a cat 2 approach and. I ve never been to halifax international. I'm shocked with all the braintrusts won't put. Gps lpv approaches into the airplane I thought that's what all the reason to charge the paying passengers baggage fees( to increase safety). Or are the A320 fleet too old and with the 737 on the way scrapped the idea.

Next. If on a cda. Approach and encounter. Strong Turbulence that would force a change in rate yes? And if you are on a approach to min's. And encounter severe turbulence ( I think halifax had, notes in the olé style approach plates about that. Could you get the aircraft engines spooled up enough to recover. My gut feeling is they were on approach to near min's encountered severe downdraft turbulence near decision height and could not recover. Before the plane impacted the ground the proof that my theroy is. correct will be on the flight data recorder. It should telll if there was any attempt to "get the hell out of dodge" putting the throttles forward.

If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.

[armchair]

Because this happens to be Air Canada, our ''largest and biggest and safest and mostest'' airline, any findings related to CFIT, crew training, CRM, FDM, instrument approaches, SOPs and so forth should have a lot more impact then say, First Air crashing a mile east of the runway in Resolute, where that particular accident involved.... well... CFIT, crew training, CRM, FDM, instrument approaches, SOPs and so forth. The TSB final report on First Air having caused barely a ripple when it came out, let's hope the TSB will have more leverage with this one.

[Thunderbyrd]

I hope positive change is the outcome of the investigation and recommendations. I am still sad that nothing else happened when the First Air report came out. Two years maybe the public just didn't care?

[Dick]

My question. ( Im not a 705 pilot). Is in that vis would it be a cat 2 approach and. I ve never been to halifax international. I'm shocked with all the braintrusts won't put. Gps lpv approaches into the airplane I thought that's what all the reason to charge the paying passengers baggage fees( to increase safety). Or are the A320 fleet too old and with the 737 on the way scrapped the idea.

Next. If on a cda. Approach and encounter. Strong Turbulence that would force a change in rate yes? And if you are on a approach to min's. And encounter severe turbulence ( I think halifax had, notes in the olé style approach plates about that. Could you get the aircraft engines spooled up enough to recover. My gut feeling is they were on approach to near min's encountered severe downdraft turbulence near decision height and could not recover. Before the plane impacted the ground the proof that my theroy is. correct will be on the flight data recorder. It should telll if there was any attempt to "get the hell out of dodge" putting the throttles forward.

If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.

I am a 705 pilot, albeit not for AC. I'd be very surprised if operational pressures/money to divert are at all to blame for this incident.

[flyinthebug]

If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.

You are correct about the approx. costs of putting 140 people up for the night...but you are mistaken about the "company pressure" in this accident. It is reported that both crew members have 15 years of service with AC.

From CBC news (link to full story below)
Air Canada's Klaus Goersch said all but one of the 23 people taken to hospital following the crash has now been released, including the two pilots. He said the remaining person was expected to be released later in the day.

Both pilots have worked for Air Canada for about 15 years and have a lot of experience flying A320s, Goersch told reporters Sunday afternoon


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot ... -1.3013979

[GyvAir]

I thought the airline was not required to provide compensation when the diversion to an alternate is weather related.

[karmutzen]

Here's the Localizer DME plate. They were centered on the localizer (Orange light stands embedded in the aircraft prove it) just 100' low of profile. CDA approach is meant that you don't change much at DH, just continue and prepare to decouple and flare. Whole thing should have been flown coupled to the FMS, including the vertical profile.

Wrong altimeter setting dialed in? They would still have the check altitude at the FAF, and the RADALT verification at DH. Approach lights are not great for 05, the recommended visibility for that approach is 1sm, wx sequence gave 6000' RVR but 3/4sm reported. Not great, but for a couple of bluenoser 15 yr veterans up front, certainly worth a try if permitted by AC's SOP.

[justwork]

Here's the Localizer DME plate. They were centered on the localizer (Orange light stands embedded in the aircraft prove it) just 100' low of profile. CDA approach is meant that you don't change much at DH, just continue and prepare to decouple and flare. Whole thing should have been flown coupled to the FMS, including the vertical profile.

Alright, most modern aircraft with an FMS would do this in LNAV/VNAN. However, as stated earlier this aircraft doesn't have that capability, bizarre right? The dash 8 I used to fly would have done this basically like an ILS. The 320's, as well as other aircraft in AC's fleet, would likely be in LOC (green needles) and Flight Path Angle. Some LOC approaches have a published decent angle and some do not. If it doesn't you would refer to a nifty little chart that tells you your FPA, distance to runway vs HAT. You hit the faf and set your FPA, then either land or miss. People assume that because this 320 has an FMS it has a GPS or is capable of LPV or RNP approaches. These are OLD planes and most pilatus, Q's, newer king airs, and even some home builds have some sort of Coupled VNAV/LNAV.

What happened? Who knows. The pilots know and soon the TSB, then eventually the public. Well the public if they're still interested by the time the TSB is finished. I mean, maybe Taylor Swift will get caught smoking weed then get pregnant and that will be the news headlines for the next 2 years.

I am glad that everyone lived. This had the potential for major loss of life and I am shocked it turned out the way it did.

[av8ts]

Even though the Jazz Q400 is equipped with duel FMS/GPS because this is a LOC based approach it would have been done using LOC and step down. LOC based approaches cannot be flown using GPS

[Jet Jockey]

Even though the Jazz Q400 is equipped with duel FMS/GPS because this is a LOC based approach it would have been done using LOC and step down. LOC based approaches cannot be flown using GPS

Someone familiar with Air Canada's 320 fleet said that after seeing the pictures of this aircraft that the aircraft is NOT equipped with GPS so it could not perform a RNAV (GNSS) approach to LPV minimums.

Most if not all of the 319s and 321s are equipped with the proper GPS/WASS equipment but some of the older 320s are not.

Now in regards to Jazz' Dash 8/400, they might have dual FMS and GPS but to be able to conduct a RNAV (GNSS) approach to LPV minimums that approach as to be selected in the FMS as a RNAV (GNSS) approach and the aircraft as to be equipped with GPS/WASS.

If it is not in the FMS's data base and you are not equipped with GPS/WASS you are not going to be able to perform this approach to LPV minimums.