HiFlyChick wrote:It is indeed good that there were emergency vehicles if needed, Inverted2, but I'm trying to figure out why they left all of those poor pax standing around in the snow and sub-zero temps for over an hour. Even if they didn't have the busses right away, they should have at least tried to get a start with helping people. Even if they had to call up every FBO on the field and get them to drive their courtesy vans to bravo taxiway and shuttle them in groups of 8-10 back to a nearby hangar - anywhere but outside!
Or maybe let the fire department ensure nothing is going to burst into flames or worse. I mean, what would you be saying if they started shuttling passengers and the plane erupted into flames injuring dozens because the fire trucks were blocked by fbo vans or busses. How about people turn their brains on and dress accordingly, or maybe put their shoes back on for landing. People get what they pay for, cheap tickets don't buy busses sitting on standby for the %.001 chance a commercial airliner will crash at the airport and everyone lives. How about these passengers wake up, complaining about the cold cause they dressed like they were still on vacation. They just survived what historically should have killed most or all... Stop bitching about how cold your fingers were, you're alive, today should be the best day of the rest of your lives!
How this plane didn't explode into a ball of fire killing every single person on board is beyond me. Complaining about the cold, next they'll be crying about how long it took to get their bags.
The fire department would have been surrounding the airplane, and the passengers said that they quickly exited the aircraft and ran away from it. I don't mean that vans should immediately have driven up to the aircraft, but even if someone pointed the pax towards a nearby taxiway, they could have walked to a safe distance and been picked up from there. Do you really think that someone who has just survived a landing crash should stop and put on their jacket? It was -6 when I got up this morning with about 9 inches of snow on the ground - try standing out in that in short sleeves, or better yet, with your elderly mother in short sleeves, or an infant. I hardly think that classifies as whining.... Quite frankly, in less than that length of time those poor people could have walked to any one of the FBOs along alpha taxiway, who I'm sure would have been glad to give them shelter. They just didn't know what to do or where to go. It's not a bad idea for HIAA to have someone in that case who hollers, "Hey people, anyone who can walk should head that way...!"
Inverted2 wrote:I think it was initially called a hard landing until the sun rose and they realized the extent of the damage.
I'm pretty sure everybody there whose business it was to know such things, knew within hours or minutes that significant portions of the aircraft were left on the embankment 1000 feet short of the runway. Such knowledge would/should have been communicated back to Air Canada. My guess is that AC PR were trying to whitewash more than they should have.
Quite frankly, in less than that length of time those poor people could have walked to any one of the FBOs along alpha taxiway, who I'm sure would have been glad to give them shelter.
The accident is one thing...this stupidity is something else, they were not stranded in the wilderness they were on a God Damn airport.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Inverted2 wrote:Do the 320's have GPS? I heard some don't but I can't see how this is true. A GPS/VNAV approach would be better than a step down Localizer. No?
The majority of the AC 319/320 fleet do not have GPS. They would have been doing a plain old Loc approach. It would have been flown as a CDA as opposed to the old step down technique but other than that they would have had no vertical guidance.
With shredded wings and separated engine, no fire, after holding with a very close alternate, and the fact the gear separated on the first hit... did the jet crash land under control or fall out of the sky?
I was expecting an announcement today from Transport Canada stating that, in response to his incident, effective immediately, all runways handling commercial aircraft will have their thresholds extended 1100 feet.
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Last edited by MrWings on Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Inverted2 wrote:Do the 320's have GPS? I heard some don't but I can't see how this is true. A GPS/VNAV approach would be better than a step down Localizer. No?
The majority of the AC 319/320 fleet do not have GPS. They would have been doing a plain old Loc approach. It would have been flown as a CDA as opposed to the old step down technique but other than that they would have had no vertical guidance.
Question if I may. You indicate the apch is flown with a Constant Descent Angle(CDA) but no vertical guidance displayed(software calculation on the FMS), so how is CDA accomplished.
It's flown using a Flight Path Angle. The FPA is published in the approach plates. You select FPA (instead of VS) and at the beacon you dial in the required angle. The procedure at MDA is the same as any other NP approach.
As it the constant decent angle question, the applicable plates have alt vs distance published, meaning all one should have to do is fly a certain ground speed and decent angle. In my experience it's harder than it sounds, most folks end up high and have to chop powers to make the spot. although I would have thought an airbus would have some fancy stuff to help. I would have expected a gps too, mind you.
"I was expecting an announcement today from Transport Canada stating that, in response to his incident, effective immediately, all runways handling commercial aircraft will be extended 1100 feet. "
....you might be closer to the truth than you d think. Off by 600'
I can't speak for the Airbus, although I'm pretty sure it is the same, but on the emj there is a FPA mode that you select as your vertical mode. At the faf you dial in the required FPA off the plates and fly the airplane to the mda plus 50 feet, all the while monitoring your vertical path. There are no charts to compare g/s vs distance etc. The airplane will fly the FPA based off the information from the air data computers.
I far prefer an ILS or an rnav (the aircraft plans vertical guidance regardless of whether it is Lnav only or not). But the FPA method is far better than a step down and chop and drop. Not a good idea in a large jet.
MrWings wrote:As has been said, a miracle no one was killed. This is not a shrug your shoulders oh well type incident.
AC has it's share of horseshoes. I recall an AC RJ in CYFC that ended up a couple thousand feet off the runway c/L wrapped around a tree - no fatalities.
My question. ( Im not a 705 pilot). Is in that vis would it be a cat 2 approach and. I ve never been to halifax international. I'm shocked with all the braintrusts won't put. Gps lpv approaches into the airplane I thought that's what all the reason to charge the paying passengers baggage fees( to increase safety). Or are the A320 fleet too old and with the 737 on the way scrapped the idea.
Next. If on a cda. Approach and encounter. Strong Turbulence that would force a change in rate yes? And if you are on a approach to min's. And encounter severe turbulence ( I think halifax had, notes in the olé style approach plates about that. Could you get the aircraft engines spooled up enough to recover. My gut feeling is they were on approach to near min's encountered severe downdraft turbulence near decision height and could not recover. Before the plane impacted the ground the proof that my theroy is. correct will be on the flight data recorder. It should telll if there was any attempt to "get the hell out of dodge" putting the throttles forward.
If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.
Because this happens to be Air Canada, our ''largest and biggest and safest and mostest'' airline, any findings related to CFIT, crew training, CRM, FDM, instrument approaches, SOPs and so forth should have a lot more impact then say, First Air crashing a mile east of the runway in Resolute, where that particular accident involved.... well... CFIT, crew training, CRM, FDM, instrument approaches, SOPs and so forth. The TSB final report on First Air having caused barely a ripple when it came out, let's hope the TSB will have more leverage with this one.
I hope positive change is the outcome of the investigation and recommendations. I am still sad that nothing else happened when the First Air report came out. Two years maybe the public just didn't care?
oldncold wrote:My question. ( Im not a 705 pilot). Is in that vis would it be a cat 2 approach and. I ve never been to halifax international. I'm shocked with all the braintrusts won't put. Gps lpv approaches into the airplane I thought that's what all the reason to charge the paying passengers baggage fees( to increase safety). Or are the A320 fleet too old and with the 737 on the way scrapped the idea.
Next. If on a cda. Approach and encounter. Strong Turbulence that would force a change in rate yes? And if you are on a approach to min's. And encounter severe turbulence ( I think halifax had, notes in the olé style approach plates about that. Could you get the aircraft engines spooled up enough to recover. My gut feeling is they were on approach to near min's encountered severe downdraft turbulence near decision height and could not recover. Before the plane impacted the ground the proof that my theroy is. correct will be on the flight data recorder. It should telll if there was any attempt to "get the hell out of dodge" putting the throttles forward.
If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.
I am a 705 pilot, albeit not for AC. I'd be very surprised if operational pressures/money to divert are at all to blame for this incident.
oldncold wrote:
If so then there is little blame other than mgt putting a lot of pressure on to complete flight instead of diverting and subsequent operational costs hotels crews etc which I've heard can run over 50k per event. I think those crews especially those new hires. Newly upgraded /Probationary Are under a lot of pressure to not do that or face internal displine.
You are correct about the approx. costs of putting 140 people up for the night...but you are mistaken about the "company pressure" in this accident. It is reported that both crew members have 15 years of service with AC.
From CBC news (link to full story below)
Air Canada's Klaus Goersch said all but one of the 23 people taken to hospital following the crash has now been released, including the two pilots. He said the remaining person was expected to be released later in the day.
Both pilots have worked for Air Canada for about 15 years and have a lot of experience flying A320s, Goersch told reporters Sunday afternoon