Wasaya caravan missing

[single_swine_herder]

Being questioned about a decision?

Well, what the heck do you expect to happen?

Somebody asking "what's up?" by a manager or supervisor, or a co-worker affected by your decision doesn't equate to being tied to a chair, then beaten with a rubber hose and a phone book for crying out loud. To them, it might just look like you're sitting around with a vacant facial expression and your thumb up your butt for no reason.

If you're not prepared to at least explain what is happening and why its the way it is so that other people can make plans accordingly, then maybe think this through a bit before becoming indignant.

I've overheard pilots speaking in the crew room stating .... "I was questioned about my decision to not go when the weather was at or below minimums and the nearest alternate was 2,000 miles away." The inference was as if he had been interrogated at The Hanoi Hilton about the newest countermeasure electronics to defeat the targeting of surface to air missiles.

This may come as an unbelievable statement, but when you're asked about something, it may actually be for the purpose of explaining something to the customer, other staff, etc. and defending your correct decision.

SSH

[bobcaygeon]

Couldn't agree with Frank more. At my company, I hate having to worry about being questioned after the fact about other aspects that have nothing to do with safety. More support from the company would be greatly welcomed... As well as fully licensed dispatchers.

Licensed dispatchers are hardly the solution, pilots love to question/ignore them all the time ei fuel loads and then mock them amongst their peers over beers later.
It also gives them someone else to share the blame with.

The only place I've experienced a significant positive influence was at a major airline and that was only because the flight crews there couldn't be bothered to gather the data themselves so they couldn't legitimately question the dispatchers decision. I also have no idea which station has a better fuel price or pax loads and when I should/shouldn't tanker fuel.

[mbav8r]

Swine_herder,
You sound like you might be one of those management types who is asking the questions.
First, unless the pilot has simply stated I'm not going, without any kind of additional information, there is no need to come looking for justification from management! That in itself is intimidation and why a dispatcher would be a good thing in such an environment, a middle layer between the pilot and management. Disclaimer, ass kissing dispatchers will defeat the purpose of having one.
Most pilots would not likely feel pressured from a co worker asking about their decision, in this situation, it is more often benign and not threatening in any way.
I have been questioned many times on my decision to carry extra fuel or not go. I have been told by the president of the company that my 45 minute reserve fuel was to go around a line of storms 80 miles wide, with pireps of significant deviations between me and the destination. To which I explained, it was for unforeseen and this was foreseen, this turned into me having to sternly state I would not go without the fuel or until the storms we not a factor. No alternate within range and told by CP if I didn't go I would be fired, this was after telling dispatch exactly why I could NOT go. I have many examples of this type of intimidation tactics and after encountering this at several companies I nearly quit flying.
Also, if I were the only pilot in each company to encounter this, I would've looked internally, however the only ones who weren't questioned it seemed were the ones that would go to 200' on an NDB approach into little grand, I wonder if that guy is still alive, I'm genuinely curious, I should look him up!
So if you've worked for only companies where management is strictly trying to defend your decisions, good for you, this is not the norm!
The only thing management should be telling the customer is that "they are certain that the decision was made with their safety in mind" and that is it!
I will concede it's possible to have a pilot who never goes, when all others are, this is the only situation that requires management intervention.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I've never met a pilot who would go VFR with 300 foot ceilings without some "encouragement" from somebody to do so. Take that for what it's worth.....
Illya

[oldncold]

Many Many times questioned about trips so developed or learned to give percentages scenarios > phone rings 2 am, gotta trip for ya right i will call ya back in 5 min ck the weather no ice or tstorms but really low ceilings and fog . so phone back say welll gotta about a 10 percent chance of getting in there tonight 3am and 90 percent you wont . and if we wait till about 10 or 11 in the morning looks like about 60 percent we get in 40per cent dont. what would you like me to do

then the balll moves back to there mgt /dispatch not my problem who pays the gas if they want yourto go look I go BUT ONLY FLY TO MINS ON THE PLATE and the best defense was always after going missed and then headn home f/o and I look at each other and say did you see anything reply negative . mgt would always try to divide n conquer so having the plane and in one peice and both crewmembers say ing didnt see shit at mins case closed .


oldn cold wish for all please be safe out there this holiday whether it be flying or drivng to grannies house keep your head in the game beacuse many around you out the roads arent peace

[sprucemonkey]

A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut.

[Illya Kuryakin]

A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut.

Pretty much sums up the 300/1 ops spec.
Illya

[Jean-Pierre]

Imagine having to go to throw your trash at the dump every week and seeing the plane your friend died in.

[pelmet]

Planes in dumps up north are nothing new. I have pictures of several different types at a dump where I used to fly into. Some of them pretty big aircraft.

[Black_Tusk]

There's a few crashed planes hiding in the woods next to YXL airport... painted a drab brown to hide the logo of the company that was operating it.

[sprucemonkey]

YES. HIDING. EXACTLY.

Is there a METRO 4 in the YRL dump for all to see?

Is there a wasaya 208 sitting in the JV7 dump? I'll go look next week.

Got room on that sked? Of course they do.

[badmash]

YES. HIDING. EXACTLY.

Is there a METRO 4 in the YRL dump for all to see?

Is there a wasaya 208 sitting in the JV7 dump? I'll go look next week.

Got room on that sked? Of course they do.

Didnt find anything at Red Lake but quite possible.

[goingnowherefast]

There's also a Beech 18 sitting on an island about a mile from the Lynn Lake float base. Burnt pretty well when it crashed. What remains is either 1000lbs or the bolts are seized, everything else was looted.

There's a PA-31 (Cheyenne?) run up on a beach about 7 miles from Big Trout. Again, just left to rot.

C-46 laying on the coast near the airport in Churchill, heavily looted and has some mild graffiti. Turned into a bit of a tourist attraction

My point being, once the authorities are done with it and the insurance is settled, said insurance company does pretty much whatever they want with the wreck. Places like Red Lake with road access make it easy to recycle the air frame. The ones in Sioux Lookout were apparently used as training devices for firefighters.

[Gorgons]

Insurance turns the wreck over to the company at some point, company spent the time and money to drag the wreck off Tarp Hill, why couldn't they take a few more steps and do something a little more dignified than toss it in the local dump? Nice memories for anybody that knew the pilot, actually maybe its a message to all that follow. As you wait your turn to fly a caravan you get a little fore shadowing of what the company thinks of its employees every time you get picked to do the base dump run, unimportant and disposable.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Pretty standard for northern crashes but still leaves a bad taste in your mouth. In YXL when you taxi up the one taxiway close to the maintenance facility you can see I believe that Lockhart Air airplane that crashed in YAC. Still no accident report out yet on this one...

[Kzanol]

A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut.

Pretty much sums up the 300/1 ops spec.
Illya

Glad you know what happened Illya, I forgot you were an investigator. Maybe just stick to your King Air job.

[Cat Driver]

So what happened to that airplane Kzanol?

[Kzanol]

Nothing to do with 300/1

[Cat Driver]

So what did happen?

It sure looks like it was a serious wreck.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Nothing to do with 300/1

You have no idea what happened