Wasaya caravan missing

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Rupert_Pupkin
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#176 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:11 am

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Rupert_Pupkin wrote:Pretty standard for northern crashes but still leaves a bad taste in your mouth. In YXL when you taxi up the one taxiway close to the maintenance facility you can see I believe that Lockhart Air airplane that crashed in YAC. Still no accident report out yet on this one...
I thought there was one for that crash. The said it was caused by wrong altimeter which didn't really make any sense.
Yeah there was one for the cat lake one I meant this one (tarp hill)
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#177 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:55 am

Kzanol wrote:
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
sprucemonkey wrote:A very respectful resting place for an aviator. The scrap yard in YQT would have given you a few bucks for that scrap metal. One less employee may have not received a pay cut. :prayer:

Image
Pretty much sums up the 300/1 ops spec.
Illya

Glad you know what happened Illya, I forgot you were an investigator. Maybe just stick to your King Air job.
Considering that I was in the same area, headed to a destination less than 30 mile from his destination, you're bloody right I know exactly what happened! You should spend more time asking what Wasaya was thinking, launching a Caravan into known icing (winter ops just below freezing in cloud IS known icing, unless you're brain dead).....caravans (like 127) ARE NOT EQUIPED FOR FLIGHT IN ICE!! How do I know this? Two FSI Caravan courses, 1500-2000 hours on type, and over 25K TT. This operation leaves the rest of us shaking our heads.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#178 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:07 am

Kzanol wrote:Nothing to do with 300/1
You're probably right. If he actually HAD 300/1, he might have had a chance.
I find nothing as detrimental to this industry than someone who will DEFEND a moronic, iladvised stupid decision. Especially one resulting in an accident that could have been so easily prevented by just saying NO!
Cat Driver asked you a reasonable question. What did happen?
Illya
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#179 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:45 am

Anyone know when this report is coming out? How long does it take to do an accident report? 2 years?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#180 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:09 pm

Anyone know when this report is coming out?
When they get every word correct and approved by their lawyers so no one can really understand what they mean.
How long does it take to do an accident report? 2 years?


They have no reason to get the report finished because when it is finished no one can really disagree with the findings because no one can remember the accident.

Your Government hard at work doing very little.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#181 Post by spongebob » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 am

Report is out. I haven't read it, so I won't comment until I do:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/c ... 170928.asp
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#182 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:10 am

Wow. I never knew that shit could go that sideways that fast. RIP Nick
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#183 Post by Mr. North » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:22 pm

It is deplorable that it has taken this long for the report to be published. Considering the nature of the accident, and our current hiring environment, it can easily happen again. It's a real shame the TSB can't be more expedient in this regard.

The flight data they pulled from the sat tracker is quite chilling and reveals once again just how dangerous the Caravan is in icing conditions. One second this individual was climbing at 800fpm, the next he is descending at close to -7000. He was only able to briefly pull out of the dive with an airspeed of 140kts but quickly encountered a secondary stall in the 130kt range. It took less than one minute to go from positive climb to ground impact - all from 5/16" of ice. A negligible amount (by most standards) that can accumulate very quickly. If I remember correctly the minimum icing speed is 120 kts, and flight below that in icing is done at considerable risk. Even in light icing, maintaining that speed can be quite challenging and often results in a shallow descent. Unfortunately, since this individual was in a climb (and under 120kts) he may not have appreciated how degraded his performance had become until it was too late.

One is reminded of the MorningStar crash in CYWG some 15 years ago, and more recently the forced landing at Air Tindi in which said individuals were lucky to survive. Both incidents are remarkably similar and I'm sure there are others that escape my memory. The C208 is often the "next step" aircraft for newer pilots looking to broaden their experience but who may still have relatively short career memories. Short enough that they may forget the more vivid reminders that the C208, while being one of the most forgiving aircraft out there, has a horrible reputation in icing conditions.

I hope my post does not offend those particularly close to this incident, and I apologise if my comments are troubling. But this type of accident is completely unnecessary and yet it continues to happen.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#184 Post by spongebob » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:30 am

I agree that it took too long for the report to come out. At least this message came out before the new icing season!

What I found deplorable though is that Wasaya was dispatching Caravans in that kind of weather in the first place!!! With experience levels the way they are, companies need to provide guidance, supervision, and direction by cancelling these flights before the decision rests only on a "relatively" new pilot. Where was the CP or Ops Manager that day and why didn't they make the call to cancel? According to the report, they look at the weather every morning during their operational meetings. GFAs sure did show likelihood of icing and they need to take responsibility for dispatching a NON CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT into known or forecast icing!
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#185 Post by Rupert_Pupkin » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:23 am

spongebob wrote:I agree that it took too long for the report to come out. At least this message came out before the new icing season!

What I found deplorable though is that Wasaya was dispatching Caravans in that kind of weather in the first place!!! With experience levels the way they are, companies need to provide guidance, supervision, and direction by cancelling these flights before the decision rests only on a "relatively" new pilot. Where was the CP or Ops Manager that day and why didn't they make the call to cancel? According to the report, they look at the weather every morning during their operational meetings. GFAs sure did show likelihood of icing and they need to take responsibility for dispatching a NON CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT into known or forecast icing!
I by no means am sticking up for Wasaya but I really feel that it wasn't just a company norm, it was a industry norm at the time (and still might be, I haven't been up there in a few years). Are you telling me that North star's caravans and superiors aren't flying if there is foretasted icing in the area? I flew for a small operator out of YXL and the attitude was always, if you are comfortable going to take a look then by all means. If you come back you come back. My boss never gave me a hard time ever. The problem was the ops manager at the time put a ton of pressure on the guys to "go and get the job done" and would rip you apart if you said no. I know this because I worked at Wasaya as well. That is what has to change. The biggest thing for the young guys to take away from this is if something just isn't feeling right and especially with icing. Just turn around and come home. Go have a beer.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#186 Post by spongebob » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:54 am

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:
I by no means am sticking up for Wasaya but I really feel that it wasn't just a company norm, it was a industry norm at the time (and still might be, I haven't been up there in a few years). Are you telling me that North star's caravans and superiors aren't flying if there is foretasted icing in the area? I flew for a small operator out of YXL and the attitude was always, if you are comfortable going to take a look then by all means. If you come back you come back. My boss never gave me a hard time ever. The problem was the ops manager at the time put a ton of pressure on the guys to "go and get the job done" and would rip you apart if you said no. I know this because I worked at Wasaya as well. That is what has to change. The biggest thing for the young guys to take away from this is if something just isn't feeling right and especially with icing. Just turn around and come home. Go have a beer.
I was only bringing up Wasaya's CP and Ops Manager due to the circumstances of this occurrence, but yes, I would extend this to ALL CPs and Ops Managers in similar operations. Dispatching an aircraft that is not approved for the operation is not safe. As in this case, the pilot did not turn back. We shouldn't be putting pilots in situations where the aircraft is being flown in an unapproved environment, even "just to go take a look". Taking a look might be the end. This industry needs to protect our up and coming pilots.

If I'm going to be doing aerobatics, I'm not going to go buy a non-aerobatic airplane. If I'm doing cargo hauls, I'm not going to buy a 152. Companies need to buy the equipment needed for the job. If they want to fly in icing conditions, buy an aircraft that is capable and CERTIFIED for flight in known and forecasted icing conditions. If not, ground the f@cking plane until there is no icing in the forecast and accept that as part of doing business with the aircraft that was chosen and purchased!!
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#187 Post by Nephilim » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:38 am

Nice to see SMS work so well for small 703 air carriers! With SMS as it is, there is little or no protection for the vulnerable. Operations like this would not have gotten away with this under the old system (prior SMS) of TC monitoring and enforcement.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#188 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:27 pm

The investigation also determined that company practices did not ensure that operational risks were assessed and managed appropriately. Flying into forecast icing conditions was a company norm although four of the five Cessna 208B aircraft were prohibited from operating in these conditions.


The company management and the T.C. inspector assigned to the company should be put in jail for a minimum of twenty five years.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#189 Post by Kzanol » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:42 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
The investigation also determined that company practices did not ensure that operational risks were assessed and managed appropriately. Flying into forecast icing conditions was a company norm although four of the five Cessna 208B aircraft were prohibited from operating in these conditions.


The company management and the T.C. inspector assigned to the company should be put in jail for a minimum of twenty five years.

+1 Cat Driver, along with every Caravan training pilot at that company who instructed flight into icing. I can say again that the 1 mile Ops Spec had @#$! all to do this one. Also just to clarify, Superior's Caravans are TKS equipped and certified for flight in known icing, one of Misurkas better decisions while he ran that company.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#190 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:17 pm

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:I by no means am sticking up for Wasaya but I really feel that it wasn't just a company norm, it was a industry norm at the time (and still might be, I haven't been up there in a few years). Are you telling me that North star's caravans and superiors aren't flying if there is foretasted icing in the area? I flew for a small operator out of YXL and the attitude was always, if you are comfortable going to take a look then by all means. If you come back you come back. My boss never gave me a hard time ever. The problem was the ops manager at the time put a ton of pressure on the guys to "go and get the job done" and would rip you apart if you said no. I know this because I worked at Wasaya as well. That is what has to change. The biggest thing for the young guys to take away from this is if something just isn't feeling right and especially with icing. Just turn around and come home. Go have a beer.
Last winter, the Wasaya and North Star Caravan pilots got into a bit of a spat over this issue. One company was parked while the other went flying.

I think the problem lies with the the term "local" used to describe the icing. It's localised as opposed to patchy or covering a wide area. If you find the location of the "local" icing, don't fly there.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#191 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:13 pm

I think the problem lies with the the term "local" used to describe the icing. It's localised as opposed to patchy or covering a wide area. If you find the location of the "local" icing, don't fly there.
How long do you think it is safe to fly in icing with an airplane that should not be flown in icing?

Or to ask it in another context, how many bullets would you put in a revolver to play Russian Roulette with?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#192 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:38 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
I think the problem lies with the the term "local" used to describe the icing. It's localised as opposed to patchy or covering a wide area. If you find the location of the "local" icing, don't fly there.
How long do you think it is safe to fly in icing with an airplane that should not be flown in icing?

Or to ask it in another context, how many bullets would you put in a revolver to play Russian Roulette with?
Guess which company was parked and which was flying.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#193 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:43 pm

Which company was flying was not what I commented about.

You did not answer my question.
How long do you think it is safe to fly in icing with an airplane that should not be flown in icing?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#194 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:53 pm

I assumed it was rhetorical. Personally I haven't flown a non FIKI certified airplane in many years, and when I did, it was floats in the summer. So to directly answer your question, just long enough to do a 180 and get out of there. Or just don't take off.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#195 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:03 pm

That was a good answer. :D

I had a real interesting ice experience in a Twin Otter on floats one day departing Vancouver Harbour.

I entered cloud as I was climbing over the Lions Gate Bridge and had just started the turn to head south to Victoria when I entered freezing rain.

In about two minutes I was unable to maintain altitude I advised departure and they cleared me for the ILS on 08.

I broke out at around three hundred feet and made the right turn into the river.

The ice had accumulated so fast the heated windshield iced over.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#196 Post by pelmet » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:53 am

So was Kzanol correct that this had nothing to do with 300 & 1?

Or was Ilya correct that it had to do with 300&1?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#197 Post by Localizer » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:37 am

I don't believe this tragedy had anything to do with the 300:1 Spec Op, (I don't believe the report highlights that issue either) if anything it shows that pilots need to look out for themselves. I agree that multi-layered approaches to this issue would greatly assist newer and less experienced pilots but the reality is .. we are the final say and we need to execute that authority properly.

If something doesn't feel right .. or you don't feel comfortable = Please don't go.

Mr. North .. I believe the Morningstar Caravan was certified for icing conditions, she had a boot failure on one side and couldn't shed but I get what you're saying.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#198 Post by rxl » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:54 pm

This airplane has a deplorable safety record.
http://www.aviation-safety.net/database ... 1/database
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#199 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Flying VFR in 300&1 is stupid beyond belief.

Aviation is risky enough without this stupidity being allowed.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#200 Post by rxl » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:14 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Flying VFR in 300&1 is stupid beyond belief.

Aviation is risky enough without this stupidity being allowed.

100%
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