Wasaya caravan missing

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Localizer
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#201 Post by Localizer » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:45 pm

Flying VFR in 300&1 is stupid beyond belief.

Aviation is risky enough without this stupidity being allowed.
No doubt but transport provided the ops spec .. so back to the individual pilot exercising his or her authority. Take-offs are optional ...
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#202 Post by rxl » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:07 pm

Localizer wrote:
Flying VFR in 300&1 is stupid beyond belief.

Aviation is risky enough without this stupidity being allowed.
No doubt but transport provided the ops spec .. so back to the individual pilot exercising his or her authority. Take-offs are optional ...
Stupidity sanctioned by the regulator.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#203 Post by Meatservo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:32 pm

rxl wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:Flying VFR in 300&1 is stupid beyond belief.

Aviation is risky enough without this stupidity being allowed.

100%
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#204 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:55 pm

300-1 wasn't related to this accident, although I do agree that it is the dumbest thing allowed by TC. I've always practiced and encouraged that if it's not good enough for IFR, then don't go, or go IFR and miss. (Excluding far off circling approaches with really high minimums, but those are rare).

When I was still flying VFR, 500-3 was my dispatch limit. That was on floats too, where I could always land within 5 minutes if I deemed necessary.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#205 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:58 am

Every morning, the the guys who are supposed to be running the show in YPL, get together and "plan" their day. I guess nobody asked THE question that day. "Why are we launching Caravans in this weather...?" And somebody had to die. He was murdered by company culture. Happens way too often. The results are never pretty.
Would have been SO SIMPLE to say..."Weather sucke, send the van drivers home...". But nope. That's not the Wasaya way.
Flame away.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#206 Post by Localizer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:28 am

Illya .. do you work at Wasaya?

I’m curious .. no flames ..
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#207 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:47 am

Illya works at a company that doesn't encourage their pilots to do dumb shit.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#208 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:14 pm

The 300&1 VFR stupidity is proof positive the T.C. management people who approve these idiotic rules are anti safety not pro safety.

I personally would love to see someone sue these people when some young pilot is killed flying in these conditions because they fear losing their jobs if they don't.

Jail would be perfect for the people who approve these dangerous rules, in jail they would at least serve a useful function for some of the other inmates.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#209 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:17 pm

Localizer wrote:Illya .. do you work at Wasaya?

I’m curious .. no flames ..
I don't work there. My intel on the morning meetings is an unimpeachable source. They really do do this. They really plan their attack for the day. I have no idea why, on this day the weather was left out of the equation.
I was sharing the sky with this young man, on this day, and heard him call about 10 north of YPL. I hate when pilots are put in this position and folks here leap to the standard "Let's wait for the report to come out..." defence. A report written by people who were not there and, don't place blame where it really belongs. The culture.
Appreciate the question Localizer.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#210 Post by Localizer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:34 pm

When you say to plan their attack are you referring to an ops call? Most major airlines have these teleconference calls about the delays of the day and certain maintenance issues etc that arose. These calls normally incorporate the department heads (plus various others) and discuss ways of improving the operation. These calls usually take place after the first round of morning departures .. these types of calls are not unusual.

That’s what it sounds like to me anyways .. Jazz conducts these calls daily at 9am.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#211 Post by rxl » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:35 pm

It wasn't all that long ago that the limits on an ILS approach were 300' and 1.
Who is in charge here? ATAC or TC?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#212 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:55 pm

Localizer wrote:When you say to plan their attack are you referring to an ops call? Most major airlines have these teleconference calls about the delays of the day and certain maintenance issues etc that arose. These calls normally incorporate the department heads (plus various others) and discuss ways of improving the operation. These calls usually take place after the first round of morning departures .. these types of calls are not unusual.

That’s what it sounds like to me anyways .. Jazz conducts these calls daily at 9am.
The Wasaya meetings are a bit less formal. More like..."Wee have 15000 pounds of chips, pop and diapers to move today, which AC to send where, and with what...."
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#213 Post by jschnurr » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:19 am

From section 1.6.4 from the Report "Icing Certification", the only systems that the crashed aircraft lacked was the cargo pod nose-cap, main landing‑gear leg de‑icing boots, and the a low-airspeed awareness system (somehow different than the stall warning?).

How much difference would these systems have actually made? On the accident day, would a FIKI van in the same conditions been doomed anyway?

The aircraft already had most of the required FIKI systems, so I wonder if the pilots ever thought "Well, it's not FIKI cert, but she's got boots and heat, so it'll be ok."
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#214 Post by spongebob » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:29 am

jschnurr wrote:From section 1.6.4 from the Report "Icing Certification", the only systems that the crashed aircraft lacked was the cargo pod nose-cap, main landing‑gear leg de‑icing boots, and the a low-airspeed awareness system (somehow different than the stall warning?).

How much difference would these systems have actually made? On the accident day, would a FIKI van in the same conditions been doomed anyway?

The aircraft already had most of the required FIKI systems, so I wonder if the pilots ever thought "Well, it's not FIKI cert, but she's got boots and heat, so it'll be ok."
Even if that was the case, the max takeoff weight for flight in icing conditions was 8550 lbs. This flight took off at more than 9000 lbs. I'm sure that didn't help things.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#215 Post by Kzanol » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 am

The low airspeed alarm for the caravan with boots is a buzzer that goes off when the airspeed decreases through 110 knots with the prop deice activated. It definitly would have helped the pilot recognize how poorly the aircraft was climbing earlier on and even would have showed a descent. It may have given him enough info to know that he isn't going to be able climb through it, perhaps helping to initiate a descent and a return to base.

This report clearly states (and I can verify this first hand) that Wasaya did not consider flying Caravans in icing a threat at all. They also had training pilots who encouraged this practice and preached "The Caravan used to be certified and the weather hasn't changed so its not an issue"
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#216 Post by Maynard » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:19 am

Curious if the other van driver who took off just before and turned around, ever told his partner on the radio, hey its shit, either turn around or don't takeoff.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#217 Post by Nephilim » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:24 am

It was Russian roulette pilot self dispatch on non-certified machines. A crap shoot. A roll of the (d)ice. This pilot lost!
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#218 Post by marlin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Maynard wrote:Curious if the other van driver who took off just before and turned around, ever told his partner on the radio, hey its shit, either turn around or don't takeoff.
The pilot of WSG128, returning to CYPL after encountering icing, established radio contact with WSG127 on 126.7 MHz and proposed a different frequency but was unable to establish contact on the second frequency to advise of the flight's return to CYPL because of the icing conditions. The pilot was unable to continue attempting contact because of the need to communicate with the Thunder Bay Flight Service Station on the CYPL MF and to prepare for landing. The pilot contacted the Wasaya operations coordinator at CYPL to indicate the icing conditions and the return of WSG128. The operations coordinator subsequently attempted to contact WSG127 on the company frequency to pass on the report of icing and to advise that WSG128 was returning.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#219 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:23 pm

All this talk of FIKI and low airspeed warnings.....reallly?
WTF were they doing in the air?? There's the real question. The answer......CULTURE!
Simple. Change it.......
C'mon TC.......DO YOUR JOB.......DO SOMETHING!!!
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#220 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:49 pm

They are doing their jobs.

They cash their pay cheques.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#221 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:00 pm

Perhaps dispatch clearances should require management signatures?
Start taking some responsibility for your actions. These guys have been hiding behind inexperienced pilot's decisions for far too long.
If I was the boss and I had to sign the paperwork, you'd be having another coffee at 300/1!
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#222 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:50 pm

If it was up to me I would put the management in jail along with the T.C. inspector assigned to their company.

That would improve the safety factor in a hurry.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#223 Post by Northboundguy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:30 am

The management has changed since the accident .. fyi
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#224 Post by spongebob » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:57 am

Northboundguy wrote:The management has changed since the accident .. fyi
Did it change because of this accident or other reasons?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

#225 Post by Nephilim » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:39 am

And the "Accountable Executive"? Was he/she ever held accountable? Another TC/SMS joke!
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