Wasaya caravan missing

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awitzke
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by awitzke » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:24 pm

People are quick to jump another small operator in the area out and about flying in 300+1 but no one says anything about the bigger operators.

I was stuck in Red Lake not long ago during the big fog in. We weren't flying, Bearskin was grounded and Wasaya was no where to be seen. Yet the DC3 was out flying from CYRL, VFR legs to who knows where. I saw them come and go 3 or 4 times during the day. With the METARS showing 1/2SM fluctuating and 200-300VV. I was somewhat shocked to see them in the air. Legal? Maybe. Smart? Well... I personally don't think so but then again I am inexperienced in the grand scheme of northern flying so others might disagree on what is OK and what is not.

Rest in peace to Cpt. Nick Little. Hopefully this tragic loss will be a reminder and perhaps a learning tool for others going forward.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Bede » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:40 pm

awitzke wrote:People are quick to jump another small operator in the area out and about flying in 300+1 but no one says anything about the bigger operators.

I was stuck in Red Lake not long ago during the big fog in. We weren't flying, Bearskin was grounded and Wasaya was no where to be seen. Yet the DC3 was out flying from CYRL, VFR legs to who knows where. I saw them come and go 3 or 4 times during the day. With the METARS showing 1/2SM fluctuating and 200-300VV. I was somewhat shocked to see them in the air. Legal? Maybe. Smart? Well... I personally don't think so but then again I am inexperienced in the grand scheme of northern flying so others might disagree on what is OK and what is not.
You know how that eventually goes? The guy does this kind of crap for years, but eventually his actions bites him in the back side. You can only tempt fate for so long. Then everyone comes on this forum and talks about how he was such a great and experienced pilot.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by awitzke » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:48 pm

I agree.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by black hole » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Was it the ELT that fixed his position or was it something other.

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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by jspitfire » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:37 pm

NickyNick wrote: Why these Caravan drivers and operators don't get it by now is hard to understand. I'm starting to think it's lack of experience and inability to make a competant descision. Aircraft placarded with do not fly into known or forecast icing, AFM has it, past accidents tell you not to. Seems some aren't taking the issue seriously. Might be time to just put a stop to all wintertime flying for the caravan if the crews and operators can't understand the do not fly into known or forecast icing warning.
Many Caravans ARE certified for flight into known icing. There's an extensive supplement (S1) in the AFM about it.

Can someone clarify if Wasaya's Caravans are certified or not?

J
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by TheFrankestFrank » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:02 pm

They are not, they decided years ago modifications were cost prohibitive. It was not located by an ELT, it was not squawking. The aircraft was outfitted with a GPS based flight tracking devise called SkyTrac which I imagine supplied the primary data for the search area.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by av8ts » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:56 pm

glorifieddriver wrote:edited out the insults. You can probably get your point across more effectively without the strong wording For the respect for our fellow aviators please, let's not write our thoughts and opinions. Wait for the facts, for now lets extend our hope for the pilot! I hope he is okay

And then he writes his thoughts and opinion
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:12 pm

awitzke wrote:People are quick to jump another small operator in the area out and about flying in 300+1 but no one says anything about the bigger operators.

I was stuck in Red Lake not long ago during the big fog in. We weren't flying, Bearskin was grounded and Wasaya was no where to be seen. Yet the DC3 was out flying from CYRL, VFR legs to who knows where. I saw them come and go 3 or 4 times during the day. With the METARS showing 1/2SM fluctuating and 200-300VV. I was somewhat shocked to see them in the air. Legal? Maybe. Smart? Well... I personally don't think so but then again I am inexperienced in the grand scheme of northern flying so others might disagree on what is OK and what is not.
d.
Twin turboprops, flown by experienced crews. 1/2 mile departures are safe and legal. And.....I'm sure they didn't stay under the ceilings. No worries.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Rudderless » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:15 pm

Does no one find it ironic that Wasaya's statement regarding the reason SAR could not reach the aircraft, was due to the same weather conditions that probably caused the accident in the first place? I'd be interested in knowing what the forecast was in the area, and if icing was forecast, why was the flight dispatched and accepted by the pilot. RIP, Cpt. Little :-(.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by 2R » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:35 pm

Only one crew member found ?
I thought they agreed to operate two crew in the Caravan after the summer beaver crash ?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:38 pm

Speculation is evil - you guys need to wait for the report. Been working this file all day. RIP to the Pilot.

Kudos to the Boys in Orange - they climbed a damn mountain to get to the site.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by SmokinJoe » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:49 pm

2R wrote:Only one crew member found ?
I thought they agreed to operate two crew in the Caravan after the summer beaver crash ?

Only two crew with pax on board. Sometimes with 2 crew when bringing freight up to a destination then installing seats to carry pax after freight is dropped off. Single pilot for strictly freight flights.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Old fella » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:34 pm

Kudos to the Boys in Orange - they climbed a damn mountain to get to the site.[/quote]

You bet. If there is anybody in DND who deserves the very best equipment money can buy, tis these guys/gals.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Kzanol » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:35 pm

Who was the base manager on duty yesterday in Pickle Lake?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by SmokinJoe » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:09 pm

SAR_YQQ wrote:Speculation is evil - you guys need to wait for the report. Been working this file all day. RIP to the Pilot.

Kudos to the Boys in Orange - they climbed a damn mountain to get to the site.

+1
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by snoopy » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:34 pm

"Twin turboprops, flown by experienced crews. 1/2 mile departures are safe and legal. And.....I'm sure they didn't stay under the ceilings. No worries. Illya"

Off topic but I'm not letting that one go - particularly in a fatal accident thread! If they were filed VFR and they didn't stay under the ceilings then they were flying illegally. Especially if they were staying "VFR" to avoid carrying IFR fuel.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by 'CauseTheCaravanCan » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:45 pm

Sorry to hear this.
My condolences to everyone affected.
You guys are so right, we should really abolish the Caravan and go back to a better time when there were only Beavers, Norsemen, Navajos to get the job done. Back then there were no accidents. Unless there's a book called King Air 200, The Swiss Army Knife of the North. Every job has an appropriate aircraft.
Whether it WAS ice, engine, PDM, company culture, whatever, right now...like right now, right this minute, it's not the point. Someones son, their little boy, is dead.
Hang your heads.
F*ck.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:27 pm

snoopy wrote:"Twin turboprops, flown by experienced crews. 1/2 mile departures are safe and legal. And.....I'm sure they didn't stay under the ceilings. No worries. Illya"

Off topic but I'm not letting that one go - particularly in a fatal accident thread! If they were filed VFR and they didn't stay under the ceilings then they were flying illegally. Especially if they were staying "VFR" to avoid carrying IFR fuel.
Ah, except you can't go in 1/2 mile unless you have filed. Below that, you couldn't leave YRL. SO, they couldn't have been VFR.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by snoopy » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:43 am

Let's hope not. Awitzke's orriginal assertion, to which you responded, was that the DC-3 was flying VFR when everyone else was grounded. Perhaps there is more to the story.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Meatservo » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:28 am

Old fella wrote:Kudos to the Boys in Orange - they climbed a damn mountain to get to the site.

Must have been Tarp Hill? If so, I guess the aircraft was not landed on a lake as someone reported earlier? Must have still been in the clag at that point then. Sorry- I guess it doesn't matter now.

I'm uncomfortable launching invective at the company at this point, not having been able to see the GFA for that day. I recall almost exactly a year ago a Caravan out west launched on a night IFR flight and turned back, too late to make it back to the airport and pulled off a fairly miraculous night landing on a lake that was only frozen around the edges... everybody was pretty quick to jump to his defence, including his company. The thing is, I was able to check out the GFAs for that night, and saw that the plane had launched into an approaching warm front. There weren't any reports of freezing rain along the path of this warm front, which was brought up during the ensuing discussion on this channel, and people made a lot of hay out of this fact, even though the outcome of the flight, given the textbook winter weather and the kind of aircraft involved, was kind of unsurprising. Now in this pretty-near identical accident (though with woefully different outcome) people want to know who the base manager was (when I worked in Pickle Lake the "base manager" at Wasaya was some local yokel whose forklift ticket constituted a post-secondary education) or the "accountable executive" to hang 'em from the nearest yardarm. I find it interesting how many differing opinions there were last year (in this very parish!) on whether or not a warm front approaching an unfrozen Great Lake in the NWT in December constituted weather that was "bad enough" to make flying a Caravan unwise... now we want to send a manager to jail because the pilot died this time. Where were the other pilots at this base, and what were they doing at this time?

To me it seems like we need to spread the word on how much ice it takes to bring one of these birds down. Like exactly what "too much" looks like. I used to fly Caravans and I can tell you, I have no damn idea. I never picked up more than enough to lose maybe five knots. Was I just about to die the whole time and didn't even know? In fact I've flown in the North my whole life, in all kinds of different planes, and I've never really found out how much ice it took to seriously wound the performance of any of them. Well, on the piston driven Beavers and Otters it would be when the windshield iced over- long before the wings quit doing their thing! Maybe they should take the heaters off the windshields on those Caravans- seems like a step in the wrong direction, but take the heaters off and the pilots will turn around while they can still see good enough to land! I think I can honestly say, if I was in a Caravan right now that was picking up ice, and I had some reason to believe I might be getting out of the icing conditions pretty soon, I would have no idea when to turn around! I like to think I would figure it out, but would I? Would you? Of course you would. Right?
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by xsbank » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:52 am

Just try and remember that this is just a job. Many are passionate about it but still, it's just a job. Nobody who goes to work in the morning should have the expectation that they are going to die at work. When it comes down to it, you are selling your labour for somebody to make a profit.

"He died doing something he loved." Maybe try something you don't love quite as much and come home tonight?

I'm so sorry that we lost another. Please let him be the last.

Know your airplane.
Don't break ANY rules or laws.
Know the weather.
Know your own limitations.
Just say no. Ass. License. Job.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Bede » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:00 am

SAR_YQQ wrote:Speculation is evil - you guys need to wait for the report. Been working this file all day. RIP to the Pilot.
I think if there's anyone with the moral authority to say that it would be you. However, I believe that it's never too soon to learn something. There are facts we know now, such as icing conditions, that may as well be disseminated now so the guy pushing himself next week thinks about before he launches. Why should we wait 2+ years for a sanitized version telling us what we already know now?

Thank you for your service.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Gorgons » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:25 am

Must have been Tarp Hill?
Any chance "they climbed a damn mountain to get to the site" was just an expression? One that describes the extraordinary effort required to get the job done. Low ceiling prevented them from jumping directly into the site, instead they drove up the north road and then humped it 5 or 6 hours through the bush, in the dark, in crappy conditions.

These guys are nails! They may not have the best of equipment but you don't hear them whine, they simply just get the job done. Regardless of terrain, conditions or circumstance. Take comfort in knowing that if they see you its only a matter of time before they get to you.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by awitzke » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:58 am

Yes it was Tarp Hill.
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Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by D_Thissen » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:04 am

'CauseTheCaravanCan wrote:Sorry to hear this.
My condolences to everyone affected.
You guys are so right, we should really abolish the Caravan and go back to a better time when there were only Beavers, Norsemen, Navajos to get the job done. Back then there were no accidents. Unless there's a book called King Air 200, The Swiss Army Knife of the North. Every job has an appropriate aircraft.
Whether it WAS ice, engine, PDM, company culture, whatever, right now...like right now, right this minute, it's not the point. Someones son, their little boy, is dead.
Hang your heads.
F*ck.
This.
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