Easy to forget

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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

In no particular order of response...
Rockie wrote: If you need a memory aid for everything you'll soon run out of space in the cockpit and then you'll forget what the memory aids are for. Then you'll need a memory aid to remember what the memory aids are for.
Nobody ever said anything about a memory aid for everything so why would you bring this up?
Rockie wrote:We all use visual reminders, but for something that big just keep it in the front of your brain. You can't have reminders for everything.

Nobody ever said anything about having reminders for everything so why would you bring this up?
Rockie wrote:I'm not against memory aids. I'm against using them for everything and using them as a crutch. If you can't remember the reason you're using the aid in the first place relying on the aid is problematic.
Nobody said anything about using memory aids for everything so why distort the argument. It is about a memory aid for a critical item(it could be used for other items though and only for those who feel that it would be helpful.
Rockie wrote:FSS clearly told the flight that snow clearing was in progress however the FO only said "314 checks" and it is not known if he understood.
The FSS told the flight clearly that there were snowplows on the runway. There is no reason to believe that the pilot misunderstood.
Rockie wrote: Anyone who relies on a visual memory aid for THAT is not someone I would like to fly with.
I suspect that there are quite a few who feel the same when they read your post. I happen to write certain things down that need to be remembered which is a visual memory aid. I think some of the folks who analyze aircraft accidents would find your statement to be very "interesting" for a pilot working in a multi-crew environment.
Rockie wrote: I never forget to confirm if the runway is clear. You just need to train yourself. Plus as someone mentioned, when you've just been told equipment is on the runway put in the effort - go out of your way to remember it.
While this may work for you, history suggests over and over again that it does not work well enough for everybody. That is why I plan to ignore your advice which may work for you but obviously is not effective enough for everyone.
Rockie wrote: A blocked runway is pretty big. Just use your brain...
While not necessarily applicable for all, realizing that many pilots in the past have had incidents(as seen in the two recent reports and even a serious accident and therefore realize that humans are not infallible and therefore after self analysis have come up with a way to reduce the likelihood of repeating this is called using your brain.

History has happened in this country in Cranbrook. Some learn from it, some don't. Learning from it doesn't mean you necessarily use some visual aid. But the attitude towards others shows nothing learned.
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote:Learning from it doesn't mean you necessarily use some visual aid. But the attitude towards others shows nothing learned.
As I said if you need a visual aid go right ahead, I'll never tell anyone they can't use them unless they distract them from paying attention to what's important. But if you ever fly with me we're going to work on your situational awareness and threat recognition skills.
pelmet wrote:I suspect that there are quite a few who feel the same when they read your post.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like flying with me, but never say never....
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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:As I said if you need a visual aid go right ahead, I'll never tell anyone they can't use them unless they distract them from paying attention to what's important. But if you ever fly with me we're going to work on your situational awareness and threat recognition skills.
It is unfortunate that some have closed minds when it comes to enhancing aviation safety and then it shows as poor CRM skills. The following article titled Deadly Omissions was originally published in the December 2008 issue of AeroSafety World magazine and is reprinted with the permission of the Flight Safety Foundation. It can be found on the transport Canada website...

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... e-3718.htm

You can read the whole article using the provided link but there are some highlights...

"Another human weakness related to memory is that, generally, humans are not good at remembering to perform tasks that have been deferred for future execution. Known as prospective memory failure, a deferred task is often forgotten until an overt indication—for example, a “config flaps” aural warning—alerts us to our omission. A simple example is when a controller requests a pilot to advise him when “proceeding direct” following a course deviation for weather. This deferred task often is forgotten until the pilot is queried by air traffic control, “Are you direct now?”

"Obviously, both FOs made a decision to delay extending the flaps; clearly, the deferred task was not remembered. The CRJ crew received an overt indication of their omission when the “config flaps” aural warning sounded; the DC-9 crew was less fortunate."

"These threats represent inherent weaknesses associated with the flight deck environment and the professionals who strive to perform flawlessly within it."

"When presented with threats, professional pilots want to know how to counter them. The following mitigation strategies outline proven techniques to overcome normal human limitations that may erode safety margins:

#3 Understand that memory is heavily influenced by cues. A memory aid recognized by both crew members can serve as a reminder to perform a delayed task.


Safety is an attitude Rockie. Insulting somebody who is using a proven threat mitigation strategy with statements like "we're going to work on your situational awareness and threat recognition skills" makes me question your safety attitude. I wonder if you would ever say something like that in an interview if questions about threat mitigation strategies. We know what the result would be. You do sound like the type who provides an example for interview answers though. After all, I started the thread only to try to get some ideas to make things safer.
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Insulting somebody who is using a proven threat mitigation strategy with statements like "we're going to work on your situational awareness and threat recognition skills" makes me question your safety attitude.
Nope, you wouldn't like flying with me because your feeling are hurt far too easily. I just finished telling you I'm not against visual memory aids and wouldn't stop people from using them - I've told you I use them myself. However when it comes to something that will kill you and everyone onboard like runway integrity then use the brain in your head and remember it. If you need a folded map in front of your face to help you do that until such time as you learn to assign something so critical the proper amount of eminence then so be it. But if you don't eventually learn proper situational awareness and how to keep threats of that nature and immediacy at the forefront of your brain you are using that folded map as a crutch, and that's something I wouldn't tolerate for long either in a fellow crew member. I want their head outside paying attention to what's going on, not folding maps because they can't remember something as huge as the runway being closed.

With me you would learn to treat the runway as a dangerous no-go area by default and would soon find your folded map is unnecessary.
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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:
With me you would learn to treat the runway as a dangerous no-go area by default and would soon find your folded map is unnecessary.
Thanks Rockie for your opinion and disagreement on the threat mitigation strategy endorsed by the Flight Safety Foundation and Transport Canada. Your input is, as it always is......taken into consideration.

Now...

Does anyone else have their own strategy they would like to share to help eliminate threats such as what happened to the earlier mentioned crews who obviously relied on memory only?
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote:Thanks Rockie for your opinion and disagreement on the threat mitigation strategy endorsed by the Flight Safety Foundation and Transport Canada.
Rockie wrote: I just finished telling you I'm not against visual memory aids and wouldn't stop people from using them - I've told you I use them myself.
I recommend you fold a map and put it in front of your computer screen to remind you that I actually do use visual reminders because you can't seem to remember it from one second to the next. Here's something else to try - read what I write but try and not think about who wrote it. Then maybe your intellect will get something from it. Your problem isn't with what I'm saying because you don't even know what I'm saying - your problem is with me and that makes you blind.

No, we wouldn't make a good crew.
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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:
pelmet wrote:Thanks Rockie for your opinion and disagreement on the threat mitigation strategy endorsed by the Flight Safety Foundation and Transport Canada.
I recommend you fold a map and put it in front of your computer screen to remind you that I actually do use visual reminders because you can't seem to remember it from one second to the next. Here's something else to try - read what I write but try and not think about who wrote it. Then maybe your intellect will get something from it. Your problem isn't with what I'm saying because you don't even know what I'm saying - your problem is with me and that makes you blind.

No, we wouldn't make a good crew.
Rockie wrote: I just finished telling you I'm not against visual memory aids and wouldn't stop people from using them - I've told you I use them myself.
Rockie wrote: Here's something else to try - read what I write but try and not think about who wrote it.
Rockie wrote: Anyone who relies on a visual memory aid for THAT is not someone I would like to fly with.
OK, thanks Rockie

Speaking about reading what people are writing....I have to admit, I have no idea where you got this folding map thing that I have you keep repeating.

But...your input is as always....taken into consideration.

Anyways....Does anyone else have their own strategy they would like to share to help eliminate threats such as what happened to the earlier mentioned crews who obviously relied on memory only?
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mbav8r
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by mbav8r »

Rockie, I have to say I'm fairly surprised by your stance on this, I dont know why but I had a higher regard for your opinions and views on most subjects but find myself questioning why you're digging in so much. You seem to believe your memory in infallible on such an important matter as whether or not a runway is safe and I've flown with guys like you and it's not usually pleasant. If anything for something as important as this a visual cue might be the best method, just my opinion of course. You may very well be the only Captain in the world who won't eventually forget something extremely important and I hope for your sake and your passengers it never happens but my method of the folded checklist has saved my bacon far more times than I care to admit, well saved my bacon may be an exaggeration but certainly from embarrassment and a few potential bacon saving events.
I also write down every single hold short instruction and cross it out when cleared across, can't tell you how many times I was expecting the Captain to stop because I clearly made sure he/she acknowledged the hold short and they still went to cross, why, I don't know but maybe they could use a visual reminder. They always say thanks and I always respond with a, that's why there's two crew, but in my mind the visual reminder is why we didn't cross an active runway.
You say you're not against a visual aid but go on to say I'll teach you to not use it, essentially. Would you seriously sit there and lecture someone on why they should be using the old memory technique and not the visual cue that has been tested and documented as effective? Granted a sit down checklist seems over the top when a simple flow would do the trick but to each their own I guess.
It appears to me, at least that the Cranbrook accident may have been the catalyst to have mandatory calls for IFR into uncontrolled airports, that may or may not have saved them because even a few years ago into a tower controlled airport and fairly experienced crew landed over snow equipment without a clearance, why? Is it because neither of them had the chance to learn from you about situational awareness? I'll let you know after I'm done reading the full report but I suspect their memory failed them somehow.
Ask yourself, when queried by another crew member if you've been cleared to land, have your ever looked at the light position to jog your memory or do you 100% always just know?
I really hope this is just a matter of you landed on one side of an argument and your anonymous personality refuses to budge now.
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

Here is the ICAO Manual on the Prevention of Runway Excursions. These practices also work for runways that are closed for some reason like snow clearing as they maximize situational awareness. See Appendix "B".

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/482.pdf
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

mbav8r wrote:You say you're not against a visual aid but go on to say I'll teach you to not use it, essentially.
Incorrect. As I've stated many times now I use visual reminders, and I won't teach anyone to not use it. I'll teach them to not need it when it comes to the runway - different.

You can die on the runway and it seems to me many people just don't see the importance of considering a runway as a dangerous place to be unless you are absolutely certain you can safely be there. The only way to do that is by actively confirming it is safe to venture on to or across. Not just when it's temporarily closed for some reason - EVERY TIME. It should be as natural to everyone as breathing. Confirm it, check it, and check it again. EVERY TIME.

If you need a visual reminder the runway is blocked you are not assigning the correct amount of importance on runway sterility. That has to change, and every organization is struggling mightily to pound that into our skulls. A visual reminder is completely inadequate, what is required is a way of thinking.
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mbav8r
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by mbav8r »

Ok, as I understand it, this is strictly to do with runway occupied or not and I agree that it should be at the forefront of all pilots thoughts but two crew members forgot or believed the runway was safe after being told it wasn't, would a simple visual cue have jogged their memory into realizing it?
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FICU
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by FICU »

Rockie is a Captain? I take his attitude as a long time F/O who thinks he's in the wrong seat.
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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:You can die on the runway and it seems to me many people just don't see the importance of considering a runway as a dangerous place to be unless you are absolutely certain you can safely be there.

If you need a visual reminder the runway is blocked you are not assigning the correct amount of importance on runway sterility. That has to change, and every organization is struggling mightily to pound that into our skulls. A visual reminder is completely inadequate, what is required is a way of thinking.
The other day, in accordance with SOP we taxied out to the runway at a busy airport with the flaps up due to contaminated taxiway surfaces. I decided to make a note about flaps, holdover time, engine run, contamination check.

Most of these are dangerous things if forgotten and have cause more than a few accidents. Does this mean that I am unaware of the importance of considering these a dangers?

I don't pretend to know what is best for you but if you think it through logically, you might conclude that for those that have had a memory lapse at some point in their life, seen the results of memory lapses by other pilots and therefore are doing this, are doing it because we are aware of the dangers you talk about.

It appears that you feel otherwise. Thanks for your input.
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

mbav8r wrote:Ok, as I understand it, this is strictly to do with runway occupied or not and I agree that it should be at the forefront of all pilots thoughts but two crew members forgot or believed the runway was safe after being told it wasn't, would a simple visual cue have jogged their memory into realizing it?
With that kind of a breakdown in situational awareness it's folly in my mind to put your faith in a draped checklist or approach plate turned sideways. You have bigger problems than that would fix. It isn't just the runway either. A visual reminder for stuff like a seatbelt sign if the manufacture doesn't already provide one is one thing, if it's anything that could kill you in the immediate or near future your eye had better be on that ball or you have no business being there.

FICU

I've been doing this for many years and trained many captains over those years. Your opinion is noted and given the credibility it deserves.
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A346Dude
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by A346Dude »

Rockie, have you actually never made a mistake and went hmmm, that could have led to a dangerous situation if... ?

I doubt any pilot has ever started a take-off roll one minute after being told of a plow on the runway, or without a string of non-standard events happening in the intervening time. Believing you can simply will yourself to remember any particular piece of information (no matter how important), every single time, regardless of the infinite number of permutations of scenarios shows in my opinion a complete disrespect for human factors and all the lessons we've learned from accidents over the years.

I agree that training your brain to fixate on particularly safety-sensitive items until completion is a commendable practice, but one day when the situation aligns in precisely the wrong way, it alone may not be enough. Maybe you are a different and more evolved breed, but I consider myself highly competent and safety-conscious and I do not trust myself that much.
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Reference
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Reference »

Wow.

I lurk a lot and post little.

But after reading those 2 pages of posts,

I want to fly with Rockie!

(fyi this is not sarcasm)
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Rockie
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

A346Dude wrote:Rockie, have you actually never made a mistake and went hmmm, that could have led to a dangerous situation if... ?
Don't be ridiculous. Any pilot who says they haven't is lying.
A346Dude wrote: agree that training your brain to fixate on particularly safety-sensitive items until completion is a commendable practice, but one day when the situation aligns in precisely the wrong way, it alone may not be enough. Maybe you are a different and more evolved breed, but I consider myself highly competent and safety-conscious and I do not trust myself that much.
Think about this for a second A346Dude. You don't trust yourself to remember a runway is blocked and unsafe to use, but you do trust yourself to turn a piece of paper sideways to save your life in case you forget the runway is blocked and unsafe to use.

Memory aids are not reliable. Use them if you want but if you rely on them for anything important you need to give yourself a shake. If something is a threat to your airplane's safety it deserves a disciplined pilot to remember it and keep it in the very front of your attention until it isn't a threat anymore. Discipline yourself, because a disciplined crew is infinitely more reliable than a checklist folded over a glare shield.

And like I said before several times, a runway is always a threat to your safety and needs to be treated as one. Do not ever enter, cross, takeoff or land on one unless you know beyond any infinitesimal shadow of the merest doubt it is safe to do so. That means confirming, checking and rechecking each and every time just before you use it. Not that hard to carve that in stone on your forehead given the stakes, and every safety organization and regulator is trying to get you to do just that. Runways are dangerous places to be especially so when you can't clearly see the full length - believe it and act accordingly.
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FICU
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by FICU »

Reference wrote:I want to fly with Rockie!
What about when things go a bit sideways?

FSS informs Rockie of sweeping in progress 20 minutes prior to landing... Rockie, while training a new F/O during an approach in crappy wx, sees his partner get behind the airplane. Rockie now starts to become task saturated dealing with his F/O and the aircraft state. FSS forgets to update the status of the sweeping when Rockie calls FAF inbound. Will Rockie's spectacular brain remember there are possibly vehicles still on the runway after he was informed almost 20 minutes earlier?
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leftoftrack
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by leftoftrack »

Is anyone else amazed that there use to be 737 traffic to Cranbrook?
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pelmet
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Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

FICU wrote: What about when things go a bit sideways?

FSS informs Rockie of sweeping in progress 20 minutes prior to landing... Rockie, while training a new F/O during an approach in crappy wx, sees his partner get behind the airplane. Rockie now starts to become task saturated dealing with his F/O and the aircraft state. FSS forgets to update the status of the sweeping when Rockie calls FAF inbound. Will Rockie's spectacular brain remember there are possibly vehicles still on the runway after he was informed almost 20 minutes earlier?
FICU,

We all have weaknesses. A superior pilot identifies those weaknesses, acknowledges them and takes appropriate mitigation efforts. Many of us suffer from memory lapses on occasion. We understand that a memory lapse can lead to disaster as it has many times in aviation and other fields.

What are weaknesses in some are strengths in others. Rockie appears to feel that he would never forget that the runway is not clear and perhaps he is correct. Perhaps he has analyzed his memory. Unfortunately, his weakness appears to have not been self-identified although it is obvious. He believes that because his procedure of confirming, checking and rechecking each and every time will guarantee his never making this particular mistake that it will work for everyone even though it is obvious that it won't. The weakness is not recognizing that what works for one individual does not necessarily work 100% of the time for other individuals and a complete inability to admit being wrong(a great weakness). We need to identify our own weakness and realize that what works perfectly for one person does not work perfectly for others. I post an article below in a different field to show how the same hazards of memory lapse occur and will highlight recommended mitigation procedures. The stakes are too high to say "Use your brain".

Accident investigation and airline safety has progressed significantly in just the last 20 or 30 years with more forward thinking and reasoning for the root causes in the chains that lead to accidents. It is always disheartening still run into oldschool style training where the response to well meaning attempts to discuss safety improvement are statements like...
Rockie wrote: Your opinion is noted and given the credibility it deserves.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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