Easy to forget

[pelmet]

"Sunwing Airlines flight SWG592, a Boeing 737-800 with registration C-GOFW, advised the flight
service station (FSS) on the mandatory frequency that they were taxiing for take-off on Runway 31
at Regina, SK (CYQR). FSS advised SWG592 that snow clearing equipment was on the runway.
FSS then contacted the snow removal units to exit the runway and to advise once they were off.
The crew of SWG592 subsequently advised the FSS that they were commencing their take-off roll.
The FSS responded immediately and advised SWG592 that the snow removal vehicles were still
on the runway. The crew rejected the take-off at a speed below 30 kts and taxied off the runway.
The snow removal units subsequently advised FSS that they had just exited the runway. SWG592
departed CYQR a short while later without incident."

This sort of situation is one that always worries me on departure or approach with vehicles on the runway.

It is easy to forget. Any personal techniques to make sure you don't forget?

[pelmet]

Ironically, I found a similar one...

"The Wasaya Airways Beech 1900D flight WSG930, registration C-GWOV, was holding short of
RWY 16 on Taxiway B in Sioux Lookout, ON (CYXL) as a North Star Air Ltd. Pilatus PC12 (CGKAY)
was on final approach for landing. When C-GKAY landed, Sioux Lookout Radio informed
WSG930 that their IFR clearance was now valid. WSG930 taxied to position on RWY 16, power
was applied for the takeoff run, and the crew advised Radio that they were “rolling”. Radio
immediately replied that C-GKAY was still on the runway. The WSG930 crew observed C-GKAY
taxiing on the runway near Taxiway A and rejected the takeoff run at a low speed. C-GKAY
subsequently exited the runway at Taxiway A. WSG930 repositioned to the threshold of Runway
16 and conducted an uneventful takeoff."

[AuxBatOn]

I don't turn my landing light on until I am cleared fir T/O (controlled) or the runway is clear (uncontrolled)

[Rockie]

You throw the runway condition switch in your brain to "closed" until such time you receive positive voice confirmation that the runway is clear, and if possible visual confirmation as well. Being unable to see the whole length of the runway should kick your caution instincts into overdrive especially at an uncontrolled airport.

[mbav8r]

In addition to rwy occupied switch I use my checklist folded over dash as a reminder for anything left to do eg; wing anti ice, or confirmation the runway is clear, etc. Not foolproof because you still have to remember why you placed it there:), it's essentially the string around my finger technique.
I also want to add, I usually tell who I'm flying with why I placed it there, double the chances of remembering. Feel free to use it, I don't have a copyright to it.

[YBW-Kid]

This topic reminds me of this snow-plow involved accident right here in Canada.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19780211-0

[FICU]

Turn my approach plate sideways on the wheel to cover the left handle.

[Jean-Pierre]

Don't takeoff because someone literally just told me there is a vehicle on the runway.

[MrWings]

I take my left shoe off when told there is snow equipment on the runway. Once it clears, I slip the shoe back on and apply takeoff power.

Or I do this:

Don't takeoff because someone literally just told me there is a vehicle on the runway.

[pelmet]

Thanks guys for the tips/ideas of using something physical. Basically saying "just remember" is perhaps fine for some...until it isn't anymore.

[Rockie]

How do you remember you haven't gotten takeoff clearance yet? Or remembered to start the other engine? If you need a memory aid for everything you'll soon run out of space in the cockpit and then you'll forget what the memory aids are for. Then you'll need a memory aid to remember what the memory aids are for.

A blocked runway is pretty big. Just use your brain...

[AuxBatOn]

Pretty easy to see your second engine is not started: gauges show 0. The idea is to have a visual cue that something is not complete. It is how pretty much every cockpit work (visual indications of a status) and it's for good reason: the average auditive short-time memory rentention is 4-6 seconds. After that, your brain goes to some other task. Having something to remind you visually is not a bad idea.

I forgot to arm my ejection seat once before take off (scramble at 3AM from dead asleep). Ever since, I leave the checklist page up on my Left MFD until it is armed as a reminder.

[Rockie]

Pretty easy to say to yourself "the runway is blocked and I am not taking off until I know it's clear". Just put a mental set of red lights up.

We all use visual reminders, but for something that big just keep it in the front of your brain. You can't have reminders for everything.

Every time I takeoff or land it's part of my mental checklist that the runway is clear. Rather than it being something I need to remember, it's a 100% requirement that has to be positively met every single time or the thrust doesn't come up and/or the wheels don't touch down. It is never something assumed even on a bright clear day. Try it Pelmet.

[pelmet]

Pretty easy to say to yourself "the runway is blocked and I am not taking off until I know it's clear". Just put a mental set of red lights up.

We all use visual reminders, but for something that big just keep it in the front of your brain. You can't have reminders for everything.

Every time I takeoff or land it's part of my mental checklist that the runway is clear. Try it Pelmet.

I have been doing it actually. But I am also smart enough to know that I am not infallible. Neither have been many others in the history of aviation. That is why I decided that I might try a new procedure for this or other important things.

Thinking of the original incident, if you always operate from controlled airports, you may be on higher alert at a place like this but many operate at uncontrolled airports all the time.

I think you might like to try it Rockie.

[Rockie]

You might like to try it Rockie.

I don't need to, for takeoff and landing my way works for me because I do it every single time whether the runway is blocked or not and is not something I need to remember to do . I never forget to confirm if the runway is clear. You just need to train yourself. Plus as someone mentioned, when you've just been told equipment is on the runway put in the effort - go out of your way to remember it. Like most people you probably turn on the nose lights when landing clearance is received. I do too, but many times the position of the lights don't match the landing clearance because I forgot to turn them on or got distracted from doing it so I double check with tower. The memory aid is more infallible I find than burning a procedure into your cranium.

[pelmet]

I forgot to arm my ejection seat once before take off (scramble at 3AM from dead asleep). Ever since, I leave the checklist page up on my Left MFD until it is armed as a reminder.

Good idea.

It might just save your life someday. Thinking you can always remember it all is not the sign of a safe pilot.

[pelmet]

This topic reminds me of this snow-plow involved accident right here in Canada.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19780211-0

Thanks YBW kid...

"At 12:46, while descending out of FL180, flight 314 contacted Cranbrook Aeradio. One minute later the crew were advised that snow removal was in progress. No further transmissions were received from the flight by Aeradio. The aircraft passed the Skookum beacon inbound on a straight-in instrument approach, and flew the ILS for runway 16 to touchdown. The aircraft touched down at 12:55 some 800 feet from the threshold and reverse thrust was selected. Suddenly the crew noticed a snow plough on the runway. A go-around was initiated immediately. However one of the thrust-reversers didn't fully re-stow because hydraulic power was automatically cut off at lift-off.
The aircraft became airborne prior to the 2000 foot mark, and flew down the runway at a height of 50 to 70 feet, flying over the snow plough. The left engine thrust reverser doors then deployed and the crew rapidly selected the flaps up from 40deg to 15deg. The airplane climbed to 300-400 feet, banked steeply to the left, lost height and side-slipped into the ground to the left of the runway. The aircraft broke up and caught fire."

A simple reminder might have saved so many lives.

[FICU]

So you don't use a physical reminder of a vehicle on the runway when you are notified by FSS on initial contact Rockie? I've known a few crews from different Airlines who did low energy rejected landings because they forgot the runway was occupied by a vvehicle in crappy weather.

I don't suppose you use reminder when balancing fuel either.

[Rockie]

So you don't use a physical reminder of a vehicle on the runway when you are notified by FSS on initial contact Rockie?.

No I don't and I told you why. I don't do anything special for fuel balancing either. There is a message that tells me the cross feed is open, it takes at most 3 minutes and I make sure I don't do it when something else is likely to happen. Plus it is abnormal so I go out of my way and devote a portion of my brain to remember I'm doing it.

I'm not against memory aids. I'm against using them for everything and using them as a crutch. If you can't remember the reason you're using the aid in the first place relying on the aid is problematic.

[GRK2]

How is it easy to forget? I'm pretty sure there were at least TWO properly qualified and rested (well maybe) B737 Pilots in that flight deck who both heard the FSS caution. So by your way of thinking they BOTH "forgot"? There are lots of ways to remind ourselves via "aid memoirs" or visual clues etc, but what about good old simple Airmanship? The simple look out the window at the approach and departure end for traffic, as well as along the runway itself is older than time. Did both those pilots forget? Were they tired? Rushed? Task saturated and trying to complete a long day inside duty time? All of those add up...a good use of experience and Airmanship helps to assess the risk...Where I work, a runway and traffic awareness program prevents these type of excursions, it's SOP, and we operate all over the world (uncontrolled airports and otherwise)...does Sunwing have one? It would be interesting to know.