Easy to forget

[FICU]

As I said...old school. Don't worry FICU.

I don't take it as old school pelmet I take that attitude as infallible.

My company highly recommends a visual aid for a reported vehicle on the runway when inbound to land because, in the interest of safety, they also feel redundancy is critical.

[Rockie]

You are one spectacular pilot Rockie but you still don't get it.

There is a little over 100 years worth of procedures, policies, SOP's, design enhancements and technological innovations to make aviation as safe as it can be. Much of that is designed with human factors in mind. I'll repeat for yet another time that if you want to put a sticky on the glare shield when the runway is blocked, or you haven't yet received an IFR clearance, or to remind yourself to go to the lavatory before departure fill your boots.

But for something immediate that can kill you your job is to incorporate it into your planning and deal with it, not just "hope" you remember it. If you're about to takeoff with snow equipment on the runway that you were previously informed about and that sticky piece of paper is the thing that stopped you then you f**ked up plain and simple. Because that piece of paper is not reliable and you just relied on it to save your life.

Use stickies of you want - but don't need them. Can you wrap your brain around that concept? Does that pass your idea of good training?

[pelmet]

If you're about to takeoff with snow equipment on the runway that you were previously informed about and that sticky piece of paper is the thing that stopped you then you f**ked up plain and simple.

Very true. And the reality is...that I realize that I F### up sometimes. I suppose I could taxi back in like you suggest but I don't plan to and neither do the tens of thousands of pilots who also F## up on occasion. So what am I going to do about it? I have made my choice and you have made yours.

For those who do F## up sometimes, and realize that they do, I suggest you read the article I posted earlier. It may save the day.

Thanks for the input guys.

[Rockie]

As I said...old school. Don't worry FICU.

I don't take it as old school pelmet I take that attitude as infallible.

My company highly recommends a visual aid for a reported vehicle on the runway when inbound to land because, in the interest of safety, they also feel redundancy is critical.

Does your company also say it's ok to stop thinking about the vehicle on the runway and to check the visual aid for the runway's status?

I used to use visual aids as well but I found them unreliable and no substitute for situational awareness and prioritizing things that can kill me. If something is a threat it isn't something I need to remember because I incorporate it into my planning and it's always there until it isn't a threat anymore. You can call it old school if you want, but situational awareness doesn't have a shelf life. It never goes out of style. If you rely on sticky notes to remind you of stuff that will kill you I submit you should put more work into your continuous situational awareness. It needs to be a lot more reliable than a sticky notes are.

[FICU]

Does your company also say it's ok to stop thinking about the vehicle on the runway and to check the visual aid for the runway's status?

It's called redundancy... you know, a back up to trap a possible error.

My last comment...

Rockie, you still don't get it... the fact your position, a stubborn one at that, is you can unequivocally state, "I will never forget", raises such a huge red flag and that you are impressing on your F/Os that they are weak if they "forget" is alarming.

Have a spectacular day!

[Rockie]

Rockie, you still don't get it... the fact your position, a stubborn one at that, is you can unequivocally state, "I will never forget", raises such a huge red flag and that you are impressing on your F/Os that they are weak if they "forget" is alarming.

After all this time this is what you still don't get, use your sticky notes all you want. If you use it for the seat belt sign for instance you'll no doubt have more success than I do without one. But we're talking about the runway here - the highest risk area you will encounter on 99.9% of your flights. Assume nothing.

Think of it this way. De-ice facilities have a very strict protocol they follow between themselves and for each and every airplane. Every time the de-ice coordinator tells you all equipment is clear and in the safety zone - every time. Every time before you can taxi you talk to the de-ice bay coordinator and he gets you to confirm all equipment is clear even though he's looking right at you and can tell better than you can - every time. He doesn't use sticky notes. He doesn't need to leave little reminders for himself. They do that every time.

THAT's the kind of protocol you need to apply to the runway every time. Do that and it becomes a part of the program like starting your engines - which I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't need a sticky note for.

[pelmet]

Thanks for your opinion that you would never use a physical reminder for a critical item such as being advised near top of descent that a runway was occupied by a snowplow kind of situation.

Of course I have provided a link to a study(which was no doubt peer reviewed ) that physical reminders in critical situations can be extremely helpful.

To quote a NASA report on managing situational awareness...
"A powerful way to ensure awareness is to create reminders. There are many that are employed by flightcrews both formally and informally. Checklists are formal reminders. Some people have developed informal reminders such as turning the checklist upside down when it is interrupted as a physical reminder that it is not completed. Other reminders include selecting the radar cross-pattern when cross-feeding fuel and putting the nose landing light on when cleared to land. These are obvious visual reminders that are in the scan of normal flying activities......

..... As we discussed above, things that take longer, things that are subject to interruptions, or that can't be done until later are less likely to get done right. Creating reminders for these things is probably the best, if not the only defense against forgetting them"

To get the report, I am afraid that you will have to google "The next best thing to a crystal ball managing situation awareness on the flight deck".

To prevent more misunderstanding, this recommendation is in addition to the obvious statements made by Rockie about being aware of hazards and having a mental procedure to deal with them, not instead of that. It is called a higher level of situational awareness.

I can guarantee you that if the PWA pilot(s) had done this, that accident never would have happened. You can say all you want about the need to have better situational awareness or procedures, but once again, if a reminder as suggested above had been made, those people would be alive today.

Feel free to self analyze and use what you feel is best for you. I'll go with the people who have studied this stuff and be aware that....as good as certain earlier statements are, we have seen on this thread are, they are obviously not nearly good enough.

Also a link to an Australian safety publication that recommends the same in its 9 ways to improve situational awareness.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/n ... t_awre.pdf

Thanks

[Rockie]

"Sunwing Airlines flight SWG592, a Boeing 737-800 with registration C-GOFW, advised the flight
service station (FSS) on the mandatory frequency that they were taxiing for take-off on Runway 31
at Regina, SK (CYQR). FSS advised SWG592 that snow clearing equipment was on the runway.
FSS then contacted the snow removal units to exit the runway and to advise once they were off.
The crew of SWG592 subsequently advised the FSS that they were commencing their take-off roll.
The FSS responded immediately and advised SWG592 that the snow removal vehicles were still
on the runway. The crew rejected the take-off at a speed below 30 kts and taxied off the runway.
The snow removal units subsequently advised FSS that they had just exited the runway. SWG592
departed CYQR a short while later without incident."

This sort of situation is one that always worries me on departure or approach with vehicles on the runway.

It is easy to forget. Any personal techniques to make sure you don't forget?

Remember this post Pelmet?

Feel free to ignore my advice and place your faith in sticky notes, but do yourself a favour. Next time you pose a general question include the words "except Rockie" and hope you never fly with me.

[A346Dude]

Rockie, what do you do when there are two, three, or more things that could kill you? How do you manage multiple "this could kill me" switches in your head and ensure you do not incorrectly change one to the wrong position, ever, even when under stress, time pressure or when fatigued? The human brain is limited, it could not (for example) accurately keep 50 disparate pieces of information in short term memory at once. So how can you guarantee you will never drop one of three?

I agree if the piece of paper reminds you about the snow plow, you have f*&*ed up. But I'd rather feel like an idiot and know I f%^ed up, but let that paper save my bacon, than be too proud to admit I am capable of making critical mistakes.

[AuxBatOn]

Rockie,

The visual aid is not a replacement to remembering but a complement to help you remember if you forget (and yes, it happens, otherwise we wouldn't be reading those reports). Lapse in SA happen and it's not always because the pilot(s) are bad or have generally low SA: distractions happen, sometimes the information was passed a long time ago and sometimes there is no way to visually confirm the runway is clear.

[tailgunner]

96.9 %of scientists worldwide, plus David Suzuki, agree that Rockie's hot air contributes to global warming.
Cheers.

[pelmet]

Feel free to ignore my advice and place your faith in sticky notes, but do yourself a favour. Next time you pose a general question include the words "except Rockie" and hope you never fly with me.

Guys,

Rockie has shown his personality loud and clear. There is nothing wrong with his procedure as he uses it for himself. I use his procedure as well and we all should. But some of us have decided to add more to it because we know that there have been terrible tragedies and these tragedies could happen to some of us.

However, he appears to just resort to insults when we decide to do more than he suggests. I sure wish his employer could see the responses he gives. He would be out of training in a heartbeat and wouldn't have a clue as to why.

And why would I hope not to fly with you, Rockie? Is this a threat? Would you do something unprofessional personality wise? Do you fail people who question an opinion you have? Have you made this statement to other pilots in your fleet where you say you do training? I am surprised. I didn't expect to see the worst of CRM come out in a thread discussing techniques to prevent a tragedy but it is what it is.

[Rockie]

A346dude

If there are that many things lined up to kill you and your situation is complex you slow down, formulate a plan that incorporates all the variables, brief it, and make a little checklist for yourself. Think dual hydraulic fault or emergency electrical config. It becomes a logistical and organizational exercise and you use every trick at your disposal. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Auxbaton

A significant delay doesn't automatically change the plan but it should force you to update your information and ensure that you know all the variables. If you can't see the whole runway that's even more reason to treat the runway as a threat and confirm. Would you launch off into the murk not knowing?

Pelmet

You wouldn't like flying with me for a number of reasons. Go back to your room and don't come out until you grow up

Tailgunner

There's been a couple of findings from NASA and the NOAA in the last two days. Don't bother looking them up.

[Shady McSly]

Guys,


hahahahahahhahaaa...yes

this thead gettin' good!

[A346Dude]

If there are that many things lined up to kill you and your situation is complex you slow down, formulate a plan that incorporates all the variables, brief it, and make a little checklist for yourself. Think dual hydraulic fault or emergency electrical config. It becomes a logistical and organizational exercise and you use every trick at your disposal. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Three things isn't that complex and it certainly need not be an abnormal or emergency situation. And it is exactly what we are talking about here, since we were not in the cockpit of the aircraft in the OP and do not know that crew's situation. I highly doubt they were told of a plow on the runway, taxied out normally and 2 minutes later launched towards the plow. Perhaps (pure theory) there was a last minute flap setting change that had to be made (thing that could kill you #2), and on reaching the runway they became aware of an arrival on a crossing runway (thing that could kill you #3). The arrival reports off, the flaps are set, and while moving those two "brain switches" to safe, the "plow on runway" switch is inadvertently moved as well.

If you think you are incapable of that type of error, either you have a brain that hasn't been encountered in all research on mental processing, or you're wrong.

[Rockie]

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand, but it doesn't matter what their circumstances were. Before taking the runway you assess everything to determine if it's safe to do so. You do that every time. Do people here understand what "every time" means? Snow clearing means the runway is closed - remember that. It means a new runway condition report that you need to know about - remember that. Get through your skulls that you are about to move into the highest risk area of the entire flight - are you ready and is it safe?

How do you forget that it's winter? Do you need a reminder to de-ice? Did you not notice it was snowing and what does that mean to you anyway? I

Use reminders, but it's better to not have your head up your ass, know what's going on around you and what threats it presents. And when you take the runway for Christ's sake pay attention. Kind of expected.

Numb nuts asked how you remember there are vehicles on the runway - well that's how you remember.

[pelmet]

I am not sure how many studies need to be shown to you to convince you of the advantage of physical reminders but the science speaks for itself. Studies have been done on the human mind and conclusions have been made.I know you think you are smarter than the scientists and their studies. I'll believe the scientific studies thank you very much. I suspect that you fall in the same category as the flat earth believers.


Better explanation below of the logic behind this post...if you haven't fallen asleep yet.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... &start=225

[Rockie]

It's not the reminders which you prove incapable of understanding no matter how many times it's explained to you. It's the disturbing fact so many of you need one to check if it's safe before you takeoff.

If this is the standard of pilot being trained these days I might start supporting CID.

[pelmet]

Ho hum..... another study, another confirmation. More than 97% of the studies on subject have supported my view .

And lets be clear, my view is concerning much more than the runway being safe for takeoff. It is for anything particularly important where something critical is out of the ordinary. But let me be most clear. Thinking that it is appropriate to use a visual cue to remember a seat belt sign but that it is inappropriate not the snowplow on the runways when you were advised of it near top of descent is ridiculous. If that is the kind of poor training we get these days......

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/fligh ... nttask.pdf

Prospective Memory, Concurrent Task Management, and Pilot Error

"Prospective memory—remembering to perform an action that cannot be executed when the intention is formed—is a fairly new but rapidly growing topic in cognitive psychology. Prospective memory is distinguished by three features: (1) an intention to perform an action at some later time when circumstances permit, (2) a delay between forming and executing the intention, typically filled with activities not directly related to the deferred action, and (3) the absence of an explicit prompt indicating that it is time to retrieve the intention from memory—the individual must “remember to remember.” This third feature distinguishes prospective memory from traditionally studied retrospective memory. (Arguably prospective memory has some similarity to implicit memory, which is a form of retrospective memory). Typically, if queried after forgetting to perform an action, individuals can recall what they intended to do."

"More broadly, we suggest that individuals may improve their prospective memory performance by (1) deliberately encoding information about environmental cues that may be encountered during the window of opportunity for executing deferred intentions, (2)by creating salient cues they will be likely to encounter at the appropriate time, (3) by making and consulting lists of deferred intentions, and (4) by periodically pausing to search memory for deferred intentions."


If only the Cranbrook pilots had done something like this..

[crazyaviator]

Checklists are there because 1- we cannot remember everything and 2 we can be distracted. A vehicle on the runway is notspecifically in the checklist and it is non-standard. Trying to memorize the "vehicle on runway" as part of an amended 1 off checklist is prone to error. A device that would prevent take-off UNTIL the non-standard item is dealt with would go a long way. The item reminder also needs to be more than a vague red stickie because it does not indicate a vehicle just something that must be dealt with that is non-standard and a person could encounter a situation where 2 non-standard items come up and the sticker now can take care of the one item but not both