Easy to forget

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Rockie wrote:These are pilots that need a string tied to their finger or a sticky note to remind them that the airport is closed.

Beware anyone forced to fly with one of these idiots...you are effectively single pilot.
Funny you say this, I fly single pilot 99.9% of the time...
Good thing because guys like Pelmet wouldn't be any help. You're much better off with the gas instead.
---------- ADS -----------
 
hamstandard
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by hamstandard »

Rockie wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:
Rockie wrote:These are pilots that need a string tied to their finger or a sticky note to remind them that the airport is closed.

Beware anyone forced to fly with one of these idiots...you are effectively single pilot.
Funny you say this, I fly single pilot 99.9% of the time...
Good thing because guys like Pelmet wouldn't be any help. You're much better off with the gas instead.
As Rockie's level of professionalism becomes clearer and clearer, I don't respond in kind.

Just with another study on the subject. The science speaks for itself.

http://interruptions.net/literature/Dis ... lSci12.pdf

"Disrupted habitual tasks
Much of the work of pilots, mechanics, surgeons, and other
skilled professionals—as well as many everyday tasks—
involves executing the sequential steps of highly practiced procedures.
Normally, performance of these procedures is
quite reliable, but we found that individuals risk inadvertently
omitting steps when their normal sequence is disrupted
(Loukopoulos et al., 2009). For example, one crucial step in preparing
a large aircraft for flight is to set the wing flaps to takeoff
position; this step is embedded in one of several procedural
sequences, which is executed from memory but backed up with
a checklist and cross-checked by both pilots in the cockpit.
In several aircraft accidents, external circumstances, such
as freezing rain, have forced pilots to defer setting the flaps to
their proper position and completing the associated checklist
until just before takeoff. Later, under time pressure to accept a
takeoff clearance, the pilots have forgotten both the deferred
setting of the flaps and the incomplete checklist. It seems
likely that attempting to perform an action out of its normal
sequence prevents the action from being cued by the preceding
action in the sequence, and it may also remove supporting
environmental cues that are normally present. For example,
the procedure at some airlines is normally to set the flaps
before starting to taxi; delaying setting the flaps removes the
visual cues present when the aircraft is at the gate."

"Measures to Improve Prospective Memory Performance
- Avoid deferring crucial tasks if possible.
- Form explicit implementation intentions and plan execution.
- Create reminder cues and place them where they are likely to be encountered when the deferred task is to be executed; choose cues that are salient, distinctive, unusual, and/or highly related to the deferred intention."
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

The airport is closed. There's about 12 things you should be doing to incorporate that new tidbit of knowledge but you're too busy filling out sticky notes. You're useless to me when you're needed.

Quote studies until your face turns blue. Do you seriously think anything you've mentioned hasn't been done since years before you were born? You think you characters discovered this stuff? Do you think anybody flies transport category aircraft and doesn't use all of those strategies? When did you get your licence anyway? Yesterday?

You have the nerve to talk about professionalism...how about you put your head in the game and display a little competence?

I'll give you a little tip as well, start in on a captain with a hundred times the experience you have with basic stuff like that as if you know what you're doing and they don't and you won't enjoy the result. I'm not talking about being a smart ass on the Internet, try being the smart ass to a guy like me on the airplane.

Kids...
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

But captain, I think I have an idea.
Rockie wrote: Your opinion is noted and given the credibility it deserves. You're useless to me when you're needed. Do you seriously think anything you've mentioned hasn't been done since years before you were born? You think you characters discovered this stuff? Do you think anybody flies transport category aircraft and doesn't use all of those strategies? Can you wrap your brain around that concept? When did you get your licence anyway? Yesterday? You have the nerve to talk about professionalism...how about you put your head in the game and display a little competence? try being the smart ass to a guy like me on the airplane.
And that folks....at full volume is your typical pre-flight briefing from Rockie on a training flight.

I thought I recognized his manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLi1iXP_SS4
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote:But captain, I think I have an idea.
Rockie wrote: Your opinion is noted and given the credibility it deserves. You're useless to me when you're needed. Do you seriously think anything you've mentioned hasn't been done since years before you were born? You think you characters discovered this stuff? Do you think anybody flies transport category aircraft and doesn't use all of those strategies? Can you wrap your brain around that concept? When did you get your licence anyway? Yesterday? You have the nerve to talk about professionalism...how about you put your head in the game and display a little competence? try being the smart ass to a guy like me on the airplane.
And that folks....at full volume is your typical pre-flight briefing from Rockie on a training flight.

I thought I recognized his manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLi1iXP_SS4
You're what my Dad used to call a disrespectful punk. Have you applied to Air Canada? I hope so, because I'd love to fly with you and see if your brain and skills are half as exercised as your mouth.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:
pelmet wrote:But captain, I think I have an idea.
Rockie wrote: Your opinion is noted and given the credibility it deserves. You're useless to me when you're needed. Do you seriously think anything you've mentioned hasn't been done since years before you were born? You think you characters discovered this stuff? Do you think anybody flies transport category aircraft and doesn't use all of those strategies? Can you wrap your brain around that concept? When did you get your licence anyway? Yesterday? You have the nerve to talk about professionalism...how about you put your head in the game and display a little competence? try being the smart ass to a guy like me on the airplane.
And that folks....at full volume is your typical pre-flight briefing from Rockie on a training flight.

I thought I recognized his manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLi1iXP_SS4
You're what my Dad used to call a disrespectful punk. Have you applied to Air Canada? I hope so, because I'd love to fly with you and see if your brain and skills are half as exercised as your mouth.
So this is Air Canada's style of training personalities. All over a 2" X 1" piece of yellow paper. I challenge you to forward this thread to your boss and see what he/she thinks. Or the human resources department.

Anyways...I am finished with the thread.

Guys can decide on their own what they think is best.

Thanks for the responses. And see you on the line Rockie.

And remember...as my dad told me.....respect is earned.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by pelmet on Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hockaloogie
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:00 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Hockaloogie »

Wow, they ran Cat Driver and Hedley out of town for being obnoxious and argumentative, and this is what took its place??
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Meatservo »

I keep meaning to never log on here again. I don't know why I keep coming back.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Easy to forget

Post by crazyaviator »

I keep meaning to never log on here again. I don't know why I keep coming back.
You need to put a little sticky on your computer :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
rxl
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 691
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:17 am
Location: Terminal 4

Re: Easy to forget

Post by rxl »

Meatservo wrote:I keep meaning to never log on here again.
From a mental health standpoint that's good advice especially when it comes to taking "better care of" one's self. :shock:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Rockie »

I'm going to give this another shot because the answer got lost in all the internet nonsense and it is an important point that just might save your life some day.

Pelmet asked a valid question how to remember there is snow removal equipment on the runway before taking off. Here's how you do that:

Never assume the runway is clear - Always assume it is blocked until you positively confirm that it isn't before you cross that line. This applies on a clear blue day in July and especially when the weather is bad or it is snowing. Always assume there is equipment on the runway or an airplane about to takeoff, land or cross it somewhere until you prove otherwise. It is a true statement that the runway is the highest risk place we will be on 99.9% of our flights and we need to treat it as such. The crew of the cited incident did not do that, they assumed the runway was clear and it almost killed a lot of people.

I'd like to discuss how you remember when you're coming in to land but that will depend on the reaction to this post.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2325
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Easy to forget

Post by mbav8r »

Hey Rockie, I gave it some considerable thought about whether or not I've ever used my folded checklist for this specific situation and the conclusion, no, never. You're 100% correct the runway needs to be confirmed clear before taking position and this crew missed a mandatory call that would have averted the situation altogether. At uncontrolled airports you are still required to report taking position for TO, this would or should've triggered a reminder from FSS about the equipment.
Bottom line, when you get to the hold line, you need to be 100% certain about rwy status before you cross it, like Rockie said, "every time"
When operating into an uncontrolled airport, once established on final and you make the "mandatory" call, you should get the winds and rwy status, that's when I turn on the landing light and verbalize "cleared to land" just for consistency.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:Pelmet asked a valid question how to remember there is snow removal equipment on the runway before taking off. Here's how you do that:

Never assume the runway is clear - Always assume it is blocked until you positively confirm that it isn't before you cross that line. This applies on a clear blue day in July and especially when the weather is bad or it is snowing. Always assume there is equipment on the runway or an airplane about to takeoff, land or cross it somewhere until you prove otherwise. It is a true statement that the runway is the highest risk place we will be on 99.9% of our flights and we need to treat it as such. The crew of the cited incident did not do that, they assumed the runway was clear and it almost killed a lot of people.
Al good points that I should think virtually all pilots are aware of. But it never hurts to re-emphasize it. But the reality is that it on occasion gets forgotten as we saw with PWA and the incidents posted at the beginning of this thread. That is the real world and the real world is what we have to deal with. So, for those who are concerned in that it is possible for something important to be forgotten, the studies speak for themselves. Use a physical reminder in the appropriate place when a critical item to be remembered in the future needs to be done.
Rockie wrote:it is an important point that just might save your life some day.
My suggestion likely would have saved all those people in Cranbrook.

Of course you all saw the movie Apollo 13. They are dealing with their problem in space and there is an absolutely critical switch that must not be touched until the appropriate time and it is mixed in with the other switches. Otherwise, they will never get back to earth. What is done...A piece of paper is taped over it(a physical reminder) which says NO. Later in the movie, the commander sees this and when it is explained to him why...he agrees with the reminder. None of this berating on how there is a lack of situational awareness or that he will need more training or other condescending remarks....just a compliment on a job well done.

As expected from any professional.

Thread closed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by pelmet on Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:42 pm, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
Shady McSly
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:28 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by Shady McSly »

Thanks you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:20 am It's not the reminders which you prove incapable of understanding no matter how many times it's explained to you. It's the disturbing fact so many of you need one to check if it's safe before you takeoff.

If this is the standard of pilot being trained these days I might start supporting CID.
Glad to have the Ph.D's(on subject)agree with me....of course it's only obvious.....and could save hundreds of lives. So don’t hesitate to use a physical reminder for something important yet out of the ordinary that has to be remembered in the future(including a simple piece of paper). And be wary of the advice you get from some people on this forum. As seen below, my my earlier advice was exactly right despite all the insults combined with bad advice. I have highlighted the important stuff.

I am sure TC would agree.....seeing as this came from their Aviation Safety letter.


“Prospective Memory in the Cockpit
by Kathleen Van Benthem, Ph.D., ACE Lab, Visualization and Simulation Centre, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada

This article is the first in a series of reports from the Advanced Cognitive Engineering Laboratory at Carleton University, Ottawa. We are pleased to share the results of our studies on human cognition and pilot risk. Each topic will follow this format: we will introduce aspects of cognition integral to flight safety, and interwoven into the narrative will be opportunities for you to contemplate what this information means for you.
What is prospective memory?

The first cognitive function we will highlight is prospective memory (PM). Perhaps this is one ability you may never have really considered before. Prospective memory supports your ability to carry out any behaviour that you, at one time in the past, planned to carry out in the future. An infamous example is remembering to pick up groceries on the way home from work. There are four key elements of prospective memory, and they include forming an intention, monitoring for cues that signal when the task is to be carried out, retrieving the details of the desired action, and carrying out the intention. Your turn: Take a minute and think about the last time you formed a PM intention. Was it important? Did you remember to carry it out?

You’re probably realizing now that you use this kind of memory every day—for the most part, effortlessly. Forgetting to pick up groceries is a low-risk kind of PM intention. Contrast this with a cockpit, where PM intentions have high-stakes consequences. Forgetting to carry out tasks either before or after entering the cockpit could cause considerable damage, injuries, or fatalities. NASA has looked into PM failures and concluded that even highly trained pilots, responsible for hundreds of passengers, can fail to carry out their future intentions. Examples of PM failures are forgetting to complete an interrupted checklist, not setting the flaps before takeoff or after a touch-and-go, or forgetting to turn on the pitot heat. Prospective memory failures of this type are not necessarily lapses in diligence. They are failures that can occur at one or more locations along the way of intention creation, cue monitoring, and retrieval.

Consider this incident that happened a few years ago. A training pilot and a co-pilot on a recurrency training flight were practising low-power touch-and-goes at a small airport. The gear-down warning horn was silenced to avoid distractions during this complex visual flight rules touch-and-go scenario. The warning light on the landing gear switch presumably remained lit. Despite their combined expertise, neither the trainer PIC nor the co-pilot remembered to lower the landing gear during the approach. As a result, the aft fuselage and propellers made contact with the runway before the error was noted by either pilot.

Without a doubt, years of training would have meant that there was a clear intention to lower the landing gear during the approach. In fact, it is very likely that when the gear warning was turned off, a deliberate “mental note” was made by one or both pilots to lower the gear at some near point in the future. Substantial damage had occurred to the aircraft before it left the runway, climbed out, and eventually landed safely sometime later at another nearby airport. The human and systemic cost incurred by the PM failure was thankfully limited in this case. Your turn: Have you ever formed a PM intention while flying? What might have happened if you had not carried it out? Did anything help you remember to carry out your intention?

Our success in remembering to carry out these PM intentions depends on a lot of factors. The example of the landing gear PM failure illustrates a critical component of PM, and that is the cue associated with the intention. For single-pilot flights, a PM intention without an external cue means that you have only your internal mental resources to help you remember. With the warning horn silenced and the warning light on a handle deliberately ignored for the time being, the pilots in our example were left to their own devices to recall their intention amid the backdrop of a high-workload situation.

Our research at the ACE Lab found remarkably similar occurrences of PM failures in high-workload conditions, with a sample of more than 100 pilots representing a wide range of ages and expertise.

In this case, pilots were asked to remember to make calls at various points in the circuit. Some calls, such as turning downwind, have strong physical and visual reminders that the call was to be made. Other calls, such as the mid-downwind call, was not linked with any obvious physical or visual cues to remind them to make the call. Even pilots with high levels of expertise forgot to complete radio calls associated with less obvious reminders. What this tells us is that we are all vulnerable to PM failures, especially when we are in novel situations and when the cues that signal it’s time to carry out the intentions are not obvious. Your turn: What special “tricks” have you devised for yourself to help you remember to follow through on unique or “one-off” tasks in the future?
Developing your own techniques to manage intentions begins with recognizing your vulnerability to PM failures. Planning for times when you will need to use your PM skills, such as while preparing to fly or during flight, can go a long way in managing risk.

The following list contains ideas for handling PM situations. It comes from Key Dismukes and colleagues at NASA, as well as from what we have learned in our studies at the ACE Lab.

1. Be aware of situations where you could be more vulnerable:
a. When you’re interrupted during checklist completion;
b. When your workload is higher than expected;
c. When the task to be remembered is not part of your usual routine;
d. When you are tired or at the end of a flight, or conversely, when you are distracted at the beginning of a flight;
e. When there are no external cues associated with the intended task.

2. Avoid multitasking when one of your tasks is critical.

3. If at all possible, carry out crucial tasks immediately, rather than leaving them for a later time. But if you must delay the task:
a. Make a visible (or audible) list of all deferred actions.

b. As you form your intention, try to bring in cues from the environment in which you find yourself—this is like the old tying a bow around your finger trick!
c. Stop and think every now and then and consciously try to recall any PM intention you might have formed in the past. Are there any cues in the environment that you may have arranged for yourself?

4. Develop personalized reminder cues that:
a. Either stand out and are in a difficult-to-miss spot or use colours that you know will attract your attention;
.
b. Make use of reliable technology at hand, such as the reminder functions of smartphones and smart watches. Haptic cues (vibrations on the skin) are often features of smartwatches and offer new options for creating cues that work for you. (That one comes from a pilot—thanks!) For example, if you are diverting and need to confirm fuel requirements, set a haptic alarm for some time in the future after you are established on your new route so that it will remind you to calculate fuel needs.

5. Link the task to be remembered to a habit that you have already established.

6. When the workload gets high, the adage of “aviate, navigate, and communicate” often comes into play. Be aware that PM intentions should not be shed out of hand. Make a conscious decision to abandon a PM task only if it is deemed non-critical.”
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:45 pm Pretty easy to say to yourself "the runway is blocked and I am not taking off until I know it's clear". Just put a mental set of red lights up.

We all use visual reminders, but for something that big just keep it in the front of your brain. You can't have reminders for everything.

Every time I takeoff or land it's part of my mental checklist that the runway is clear. Rather than it being something I need to remember, it's a 100% requirement that has to be positively met every single time or the thrust doesn't come up and/or the wheels don't touch down. It is never something assumed even on a bright clear day. Try it Pelmet.
I'm afraid that what works for some does not work for all. Therefore a visual reminder of a vehicle on the runway after being advised of such, can save the day and is recommended as can be seen with this recent incident.....

"C-FNAZ, a British Aerospace Jetstream 32 aircraft operated by Northwestern Air Lease, was conducting flight PLR599 from Edmonton Intl (CYEG), AB to Fort Smith (CYSM), NT with 2 crew members and 14 passengers on board. Approximately 100 nm south of CYSM, the flight crew established the first radio contact with CYSM’s Community Aerodrome Radio Station (CARS). The CARS operator advised PLR599 of the current weather, and the flight crew gave their Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA). The CARS operator then proceeded to advised Truck 80 (TK80), which was clearing snow on Runway 12/30, of the inbound traffic and provided its ETA.

Approximately 28 nm south of CYSM, the CARS operator passed the aerodrome information and ground equipment traffic on the runway to PLR599. Upon entering the zone, the flight crew of PLR599 did not make a radio call, nor did they advised that they were on final approach for Runway 30. When the CARS operator realized that the aircraft was landing, they advised TK80 of the situation. TK80 saw PLR599’s landing lights behind him, and quickly proceeded to the equipment turn off loop near the threshold for Runway 12. TK80 then radioed that they were clear of all maneuvering areas. PLR599 landed on Runway 30 while TK80 was still on the runway."
---------- ADS -----------
 
pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

Re: Easy to forget

Post by pilotidentity »

Pelmet, this thread was a good read. I forgot about my Ichiban noodles on the stove while reading it though... Damn it!

The advice about taking off your left shoe and then simply slipping it back on made me laugh. Brilliant!

So how did it all turn out with you and Rockie three years later - are you guys flying together now at Air Canada? Best buds with it all sorted out? Stranger things do happen, ha ha.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”