Thank goodness for that!

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PilotDAR
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Thank goodness for that!

Post by PilotDAR »

Good job mods, that was needed!
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cncpc
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by cncpc »

PilotDAR wrote:Good job mods, that was needed!

For sure.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by CpnCrunch »

Yep, just goes to show we can't have a useful discussion about an accident. Carry on as usual.
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cncpc
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by cncpc »

CpnCrunch wrote:Yep, just goes to show we can't have a useful discussion about an accident. Carry on as usual.
I don't see why the discussion can't be restarted, without the defamation part.

I don't think the mods had any choice but to take it down, although early on it would only have been as little as one post that needed cutting.

A site like this has moderators. It isn't expected to be instantly on top of every defamatory post, but once it receives some indication of defamation, then it is liable if it fails to act.

The result becomes legal expense for AvCanada. It becomes the forum, rather than whoever the guy with the personal beef was, who has to prove what an anonymous poster said was true. In every possible interpretation. Legal bill between $30,000 to $50,000, maybe punitive damages for malice on top of it all.

The good thing would have been that the site also allowed some of us to challenge the defamation and lessen its effect.
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bandaid
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by bandaid »

Here is the reason it is gone. You all agreed to these rules when you signed on, not too sure why when we follow these rules you are surprised?
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=17666
And
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=91458
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by Eagerotter »

I apologize for my role in heating things up. For the record, what I've written about this accident I've also stated in conversation with the PIC, albeit with more tact.

I'll be offering my help in extracting the bird and will post updates as that happens.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by CpnCrunch »

bandaid wrote:Here is the reason it is gone. You all agreed to these rules when you signed on, not too sure why when we follow these rules you are surprised?
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=17666
And
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=91458
Yes, of course. However it would be preferable to cull the thread rather than deleting it entirely.
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bandaid
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by bandaid »

And it probably will be. I will often remove a reported thread and leave it in the mod cave specially if it has a lot of technical stuff involved. As most on here know I am not in aviation, never have been. That in its self leaves me with no other choice than to rely on some of the other mods who have a background in aviation to have a look, purge and put back.
My rule of thumb on threads though is once they get purged and returned and it comes back with more reports than it is toast.
The mods volunteer here. I may come in here a couple times a day and will have a quick look through new threads, comments and reports. I would like to think I can rely on the members here to be responsible enough to follow the rules and keep things here civil and not get the webmaster into hot water. I would challenge any of you that tend to post the negative comments to say what you say here to the people or company for whom your response or thread is directed. That has always been my measure. Would I say this to the person's face?
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by cncpc »

bandaid wrote: I would like to think I can rely on the members here to be responsible enough to follow the rules and keep things here civil and not get the webmaster into hot water. I would challenge any of you that tend to post the negative comments to say what you say here to the people or company for whom your response or thread is directed. That has always been my measure. Would I say this to the person's face?
Exactly, except for this.

The reality is that some of those negative comments are defamatory when they makes certain types of allegations, and the person making them is anonymous. And they are being said to literally thousands of faces.

So your measure is a good one in cases where someone insults someone else and it may be resolved by a good kick in the balls. Face to face. An insult isn't generally defamation, which may seem odd, but it isn't. It's only defamation if it goes to a person's character. The kind of people who do that stuff, either insult or defamation, aren't likely to show up for a face to face meeting.

This forum has as a part of its purpose the furtherance of safety. Whether something is negative becomes very much about the perception of the target. People or companies, either type of target has the potential and the human nature to retaliate. And they will. That is why everyone here except Snoopy is anonymous to 99% of the posters. And Widow when she posted. People post anonymously so they can speak freely about things that are important on this forum.

We were discussing an accident in which an airplane got into a position that it faced rising terrain that it couldn't outclimb and couldn't turn out of. It ended up on a glacier with no injuries and I agree that whatever happened before the metal met the ice, the way in which it did was some pretty good airmanship, if only for a few seconds. The cause of that had nothing to do with whether the aircraft was in annual, or whatever else was said. Because those statements implied criminal acts on the part of one party, they were defamation.

That is the point where the person making those claims should come face to face with the target and with all of us. Stand up, say this is my name, this is my address where you can serve me with your lawsuit, and I stand by what I said.
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bandaid
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by bandaid »

cncpc wrote:
bandaid wrote: I would like to think I can rely on the members here to be responsible enough to follow the rules and keep things here civil and not get the webmaster into hot water. I would challenge any of you that tend to post the negative comments to say what you say here to the people or company for whom your response or thread is directed. That has always been my measure. Would I say this to the person's face?
Exactly, except for this.

The reality is that some of those negative comments are defamatory when they makes certain types of allegations, and the person making them is anonymous. And they are being said to literally thousands of faces.

So your measure is a good one in cases where someone insults someone else and it may be resolved by a good kick in the balls. Face to face. An insult isn't generally defamation, which may seem odd, but it isn't. It's only defamation if it goes to a person's character. The kind of people who do that stuff, either insult or defamation, aren't likely to show up for a face to face meeting.

This forum has as a part of its purpose the furtherance of safety. Whether something is negative becomes very much about the perception of the target. People or companies, either type of target has the potential and the human nature to retaliate. And they will. That is why everyone here except Snoopy is anonymous to 99% of the posters. And Widow when she posted. People post anonymously so they can speak freely about things that are important on this forum.

We were discussing an accident in which an airplane got into a position that it faced rising terrain that it couldn't outclimb and couldn't turn out of. It ended up on a glacier with no injuries and I agree that whatever happened before the metal met the ice, the way in which it did was some pretty good airmanship, if only for a few seconds. The cause of that had nothing to do with whether the aircraft was in annual, or whatever else was said. Because those statements implied criminal acts on the part of one party, they were defamation.

That is the point where the person making those claims should come face to face with the target and with all of us. Stand up, say this is my name, this is my address where you can serve me with your lawsuit, and I stand by what I said.
If I can not say it to a person I will not say it anonymously. My integrity is worth way more to me. I think that anyone who has PM'ed me privately will attest that I speak my mind and though I don't give my full name I always give my first. I have had my ups and downs here over a lot of years and every so often people get upset about the moderation. My point is and has been that the rules here are pretty easy to follow. If by enforcing the rules you feel you have been slighted than you didn't read them.
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by Rockie »

I have on occasion had posts removed and been a participant in discussions that ended up getting pulled. Usually I anticipate it because I know things are starting to spin out of control. I know they're spinning out of control because I know the rules even though I fly a little to close to them myself at times. But nobody forces me to post here and them's the rules - take it or leave it.

I appreciate that this site has standards. Nobody will agree with them all the time but it's a lot better than not having any especially when contradictory opinions are being expressed.
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by PilotDAR »

I read here to learn, I post here to participate. I am an aviation professional, and I really do know what I'm reading when it's about planes and flying - but I still have a lot to learn too. I don't care to learn that any one person considers any other person to be substandard, it does not help much. Accidents happen to people who did a really good job of flying, and just got caught out, and a hundred times a day, an accident could have happened to a careless flier, and we did not hear anything. Some of the accidents we really could learn from never come up for discussion.

The minute anyone even mentions "libel" on a thread, it's probably gone too far. If someone is thinking that about something posted, we've strayed from the accident prevention discussion, and have blundered into personal attacks. 'Doesn't help.

Elsewhere, I have authority, and it's "hotel lobby rules". If you would not speak it aloud in a crowded hotel lobby, don't post it. If I would not want to overhear it in the hotel lobby, I'll probably delete it. There are polite ways to say that you think someone made a poor decision, and why you think that. If you need to, say it, and move on. Sometimes it's what needs to be said, but not over and over with increasing vengence. If I understand correctly, something truthful is not libelous, but if we have to consider that about a post, I think we've drifted from the theme of accident prevention.

If you genuinely think that a person has done something so bad that TC enforcement is warranted, you know TC's number, tell them, not us! Nothing good will come from a bunch of anonymous Canadians pointing the ugly stick at a fellow aviator.

For every accident, you can find something done right, and maybe something done wrong, how about we focus on learning, rather than mud slinging.... Non aviation people read these posts too, particularly after an accident. If we post beyond our knowledge and fact, and stray into personal attacks and bickering, we arm people who don't like flying, and we make ourselves look childish and foolish. I'm not saying that we have to gather around an offending pilot in a group hug, but multi post personal attacks will cause smoke to appear, and then people outside our group start looking for fire - do we need that?

This is a social place, where I come to participate in a friendly group of peers. If a faction of that group is going to raise a fuss in the corner of the room, and disrupt the discussion, I'll probably go home for the night.....
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by AirFrame »

I was rather surprised that thread lasted as long as it did. I wonder if it would have been just as sorely lacking in tact if everyone had died instead.
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Re: Thank goodness for that!

Post by Eagerotter »

cncpc wrote: The cause of that had nothing to do with whether the aircraft was in annual, or whatever else was said. Because those statements implied criminal acts on the part of one party, they were defamation.

That is the point where the person making those claims should come face to face with the target and with all of us. Stand up, say this is my name, this is my address where you can serve me with your lawsuit, and I stand by what I said.
That's your opinion. I disagree. I think a pattern leads to a conclusion. Not in all cases but definitely in this one. Libel, defamation, slander all involve untruths. Nothing I said was untrue. And I known way more about this particular situation than you do.

I've come face to face with the "target" and I have no obligation to come face to face with you. If anything it's the other way around- you were the one name calling and hurling insults at other posters. I've apologized for my role, you should do the same.
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