Emirates Flight EK521 777 Crash Landing

[North Shore]

I think that the carry-on baggage issue is more a function of habit than malice to others. Every single time you take a plane, it lands, taxis in, comes to a stop, goes 'bing' and the seatbelt light turns off, and you stand and get your carry-on out of the overhead. Every. Single. Time. Until, this one time, that doesn't happen. But, by then you are so programmed to grab your bag when you've come to a complete stop, that it's almost impossible not to, even if there's smoke in the air.

Locking bins might be a good idea (how much extra weight to that arrangement, though?) but I'd be willing to bet that you'd still be held up in an emergency evac by people struggling to open the 'jammed' bins..

[Rookie50]

Maybe if they took their damn faces out of their phones and actually listened to the safety briefing, after all it's given in at least two or even three languages at that airline, and I know from experience what languages they understand...seriously...these people are lucky to be alive... No excuse for that brand of idiocy!

Maybe the airlines could also shut up with the loud, unmutable advertising on the screens during taxi, too, so those pax that are aware can focus on reviewing emergency procedures and exits without distraction.

Curious how credit card ads contribute to safety, pre takeoff.

[JMACK]

From "The Australian" news paper

Emirates B777 crash was accident waiting to happen
BYRON BAILEYThe Australian12:00AM August 9, 2016

The crash of an Emirates B777 during an attempted go-around in Dubai last Wednesday was always an accident waiting to happen.

It was not the fault of the pilots, the airline or Boeing, because this accident could have happened to any pilot in any airline flying any modern glass cockpit airliner — Airbus, Boeing or Bombardier — or a large corporate jet with autothrottle.

It is the result of the imperfect interaction of the pilots with supposedly failsafe automatics, which pilots are rigorously trained to trust, which in this case failed them.

First, let us be clear about the effect of hot weather on the day. All twin-engine jet aircraft are certified at maximum takeoff weight to climb away on one engine after engine failure on takeoff at the maximum flight envelope operating temperature — 50 degrees C in the case of a B777 — to reach a regulatory climb gradient minimum of 2.4 per cent.

The Emirates B777-300 was operating on two engines and at a lower landing weight, so climb performance should not have been a problem. I have operated for years out of Dubai in summer, where the temperature is often in the high 40s, in both widebody Airbus and Boeing B777 aircraft.

Secondly, a pilot colleague observed exactly what happened as he was there, waiting in his aircraft to cross runway 12L. The B777 bounced and began a go-around. The aircraft reached about 150 feet (45 metres) with its landing gear retracting, then began to sink to the runway.

This suggests that the pilots had initiated a go-around as they had been trained to do and had practised hundreds of times in simulators, but the engines failed to respond in time to the pilot-commanded thrust. Why?

Bounces are not uncommon. They happen to all pilots occasionally. What was different with the Emirates B777 bounce was that the pilot elected to go around. This should not have been a problem as pilots are trained to apply power, pitch up (raise the nose) and climb away. However pilots are not really trained for go-arounds after a bounce; we practise go-arounds from a low approach attitude.

Modern jets have autothrottles as part of the autoflight system. They have small TOGA (take off/go-around) switches on the throttle levers they click to command autothrottles to control the engines, to deliver the required thrust. Pilots do not physically push up the levers by themselves but trust the autothrottles to do that, although it is common to rest your hand on the top of the levers. So, on a go-around, all the pilot does is click the TOGA switches, pull back on the control column to raise the nose and — when the other pilot, after observing positive climb, announces it — calls “gear up” and away we go!

But in the Dubai case, because the wheels had touched the runway, the landing gear sensors told the autoflight system computers that the aircraft was landed. So when the pilot clicked TOGA, the computers — without him initially realising it — inhibited TOGA as part of their design protocols and refused to spool up the engines as the pilot commanded.

Imagine the situation. One pilot, exactly as he has been trained, clicks TOGA and concentrates momentarily on his pilot’s flying display (PFD) to raise the nose of the aircraft to the required go-around attitude — not realising his command for TOGA thrust has been ignored. The other pilot is concentrating on his PFD altimeter to confirm that the aircraft is climbing due to the aircraft momentum. Both suddenly realise the engines are still at idle, as they had been since the autothrottles retarded them at approximately 30 feet during the landing flare. There is a shock of realisation and frantic manual pushing of levers to override the autothrottle pressure.

But too late. The big engines take seconds to deliver the required thrust before and before that is achieved the aircraft sinks to the runway.

It could have happened to any pilot caught out by an unusual, time-critical event, for which rigorous simulator training had not prepared him.

Automation problems leading to pilot confusion are not uncommon; but the designers of the autoflight system protocols should have anticipated this one. Perhaps an audible warning like “manual override required” to alert the pilots immediately of the “automation disconnect”.

My feeling is the pilots were deceived initially by the autothrottle refusal to spool up the engines, due to the landing inhibits, and a very high standard of simulator training by which pilots are almost brainwashed to totally rely on the automatics as the correct thing.

Byron Bailey is a commercial pilot with more than 45 years’ experience and 26,000 flying hours, and a former RAAF fighter pilot. He was a senior captain with Emirates for 15 years.

[pelmet]

There is much truth to this article. TOGA on many Boeing's is inhibited once on the ground after touchdown(I assume so that if the switch(es) are pressed, thrust will not be added). But, the pilot should always follow through to ensure that the thrust levers are moving forward. Otherwise, you are trying to climb with idle thrust. The pilot not flying's call is possibly among other things, "Go-around thrust set". So the PF is supposed to make sure that thrust is added, and the PNF is supposed to ensure that it has been added.

I seem to remember an MD-80 crashed for this exact reason(not ensuring that thrust was added) a few years back in Phuket.

Bottom line, you have to ensure that the thrust levers/throttle actually move forward. There are other screw-ups that can happen as well in a critical situation such as pushing the autothrottle disconnect switch instead of TOGA.

So what to do. Perhaps, just a quick review in your mind or verbally on what you will do in the event of a go-around. From hand motions to calls. I know I have screwed it up in the sim so I am a perfect candidate to take this advice because there is no time for review once the action is actually required and it is rarely required.

Of course, just pushing the thrust levers forward manually as a normal assistance to the autothrottle works as well, especially if the autothrottle is not doing what you want.

[FICU]

Do we know... Was this a low energy rejected landing or was it a go-around after a bounced landing? A low energy rejected landing can easily result in a bounce but you don't do a thing other than climb until you reach Vref+adjustment. Regardless... If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

[GRK2]

So...two apparently very experienced pilots forget to follow through and manually push (regardless of the A/T mode) throttles on an airplane forward during a go around? I have to say that it's supposed to be a basic maneuver associated with any such actions. To be so mode dependent is contrary to what I've been taught. What I ask from my colleagues in ANY seat is to stay "tactile" with the controls. (hands on at at least critical moments, such as this one) It must be an automatic response...push the throttles up and raise the nose...it's a GO AROUND for frik sakes. Have we become so stupid as to forget that? Basic flying skill right? Yes they bounced, and it's a rare occurrence, and by all indications the go around was the right action to take after the bounce, but to not physically add thrust? Kinda boggles the mind.

[pelmet]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

[Meatservo]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

[pelmet]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

That is part of the go-around procedure. The PNF says "go-around thrust set" due to its extreme importance.

[Eric Janson]

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

When I flew Boeing it was always "Manual Flight - Manual Thrust". In this situation you always pushed the Thrust Levers forward in the event of a go-around. The PNF would fine tune the Thrust after being given the "set thrust" command.

The only time we ever used Auto Thrust for landing was on a Cat 2/3 approach.

I don't fly Boeing anymore but it appears that not everyone operates as listed above.

From personal observation I see a lot of Pilots who are afraid to turn any automation off.

[Oxi]

So they seemed to have positive rate and raised the gear? Only to find out they didn't

[Meatservo]

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

Yes of course. My point being that there was someone else there who might reasonably have been expected to understand the power had not been set. If the manoeuvre being flown required full power, and neither pilot nor the computer figured out that the great big levers right in the middle of everything hadn't moved, then in reality I guess nobody was really the PF, were they? I guess even if it's not S.O.P. I might forgive the PNF for actually acting to prevent our imminent doom, even if he is third in command after the PF and the computer.

You'll forgive my ignorance, I hope: I really have no business commenting on the affairs of the pros in the big ships. Even if I do occasionally have the misfortune of finding myself trapped in the back of one.

[pelmet]

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

When I flew Boeing it was always "Manual Flight - Manual Thrust". In this situation you always pushed the Thrust Levers forward in the event of a go-around. The PNF would fine tune the Thrust after being given the "set thrust" command.

The only time we ever used Auto Thrust for landing was on a Cat 2/3 approach.

I don't fly Boeing anymore but it appears that not everyone operates as listed above.

From personal observation I see a lot of Pilots who are afraid to turn any automation off.

Like an Airbus, the 777 is always flown with autothrust operating unless it is not working which of course would be almost never.

Thanks Eric Jansen for the reply below. I will correct my statement to...Many operators of Airbus and 777 aircraft require that their crews operate with the autothrottle on throughout the approach.

[righthandman]

Do we know... Was this a low energy rejected landing or was it a go-around after a bounced landing? A low energy rejected landing can easily result in a bounce but you don't do a thing other than climb until you reach Vref+adjustment. Regardless... If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

Not just that but knowing the weather is warm etc., what's the panic in raising the gear? At least the plane would have settled onto extended gear. I am not saying what would still result would be pretty, but on top of everything you say about the automation and what they should have done with the thrust, I think I would have held off raising the gear for a little longer.

If nothing else I would try what I said on a Sim (delaying raising the gear)...and see what results. Maybe the training would need to be tweaked a bit.

[Eric Janson]

Like an Airbus, the 777 is always flown with autothrust operating unless it is not working which of course would be almost never.

I don't agree - there are still operators who allow/encourage manual flying with autothrust off.

There is nothing in the SOP at my company that prevents me from using manual thrust on the airbus.

There are also situations where autothrust will make things worse due to the slower rate of response. The FCTM for both Boeing and airbus is very clear about turning automation off if it is not performing adequately.

[Eric Janson]

Interim report released:-

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... A6-EMW.pdf

[PostmasterGeneral]

Only skimmed over the report while on the shitter, but it looks like they initiated a go-around after touchdown (rejected landing) and the autothrust didn't advance the levers, by the time the crew did so manually they were ref -20 with less flaps now and the gear halfway up when they stalled it into the runway.

I've never flown a plane with auto throttle before but just seems weird to me to not "have your hand there" during the landing phase. After all, you do need to be on them to hit the TOGA button? If they don't move as commanded, just shove them forward?

[Commonwealth]

Those 90 day totals seem quite high. Standard ops for ME carriers I imagine.
CW

[Eric Janson]

I've never flown a plane with auto throttle before but just seems weird to me to not "have your hand there" during the landing phase. After all, you do need to be on them to hit the TOGA button? If they don't move as commanded, just shove them forward?

That's the correct procedure - SOP at every company I've worked at.

On the airbus you have to push the thrust levers all the way forward to get go-around thrust - very intuitive with no buttons to push.

[Inverted2]

So it took them a month to release this and meanwhile in Canada it's been 18 months since the YHZ crash and nothing....