Twin crash Powell river

[Its What I do]

Twin crashed Powell River this am .
Heard pilot didn't make it.
Condolences to friends and family.

Reported low and slow..........

[CpnCrunch]

Looks like GLGZ

[Its What I do]

Unfotunately I think your right .
Godspeed .

[amraam]

http://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/pilot ... -1.3058964

[twistedoldwrench]

First, I'd like to express my sincere condolances to family and friends involved.
There must be a general lack of info about this crash on line and I must say I am bothered by the circumstances of this accident. I did not know the pilot, but I know people that did. The news sayes TSB is investigating, well they showed up and said the evidence is that one engine wasn't making power- Ok by why???
By 4 pm that day the Rcmp was done, the TSB was done, and the insurance companies were looking for someone to keep the wreckage "secure".
The next day I was contacted by an organization tasked by the insurance co to help remove the wreckage, so I was involved in the clean up- I also have talked with eye withness's to the crash so I'm fairly confident in the information I am presenting here. My objective in this post is to bring about discussion of what may have gone wrong so others can avoid ending up in similar circumstances.
The aircraft looked to be in excellent condition with everything in top notch shape- I've been involved in maintenance for 39 years so I think I have a good idea on this!
So the chain of events as I know it, is that he did a fly by of the airport east to west, was a 8-15 knott SE wind blowing. Turned over the straight and was approaching the airport. By the time he was over the accident scene he was low and slow, possibly with engine problems- one or both unkown?, but by Joyce Avenue was below the runway elevation and in trouble. A stall to the left ended up in a 180* spin into the ground.
So here is what I have to offer - the enviromental conditions were 14.7 C temp, 11C dew point and 80% RH, if carburated would be prime condtions for carb ice- this A/C was fuel injected, RAYJAY turbo equipped. Both throttles were forward, both props were forward, mixtures were leaned, electric fuel pumps on, turbo's were backed off (manual control?), alternate air closed, cowl flaps open, flaps at approach and gear down. So normal reaction would to be to feather a bad engine and procede to land, but what if both were acting up ?? maybe the right regained power and caused uncontrollable yaw??
Well a very sad situation, My hope is that this info will stimulate some insightful understanding of what may have gone wrong!! Again my sincere condolances to those involved.

[JBI]

I have great respect for the TSB, but I do wish they'd provide initial details about accidents in a more timely basis. I've been involved in a number aircraft accident investigations and am extremely impressed with the work they do and the factors that go in to preparing a report.

I just wanted to clarify that when an aircraft is removed after an accident it's not like the TSB is no longer involved and no one is doing any more investigating. The aircraft will go to a secure location and the TSB may do various tests if necessary and then, with the TSB's permission if they have not released the aircraft, or after the aircraft has been released, various technical experts will also do tests on an aircraft.

Extensive photographs and geographical detailing will take place prior to the aircraft being removed from the accident site.

The insurance companies have a number of responsibilities after an aircraft accident. Not only does it include removing and securing the wreckage (in the event there are claims and a technical issue is in dispute) but also covering third party property damage caused by the accident.

[Mick G]

Sounds to me like a pitch change actuator failure

[Gear Jerker]

Well assuming that the information twistedoldwrench shared is accurate, sure reads like a VMC roll scenario. Gear down, cowls open, flaps at approach = high drag. Assuming an engine problem, in most light twins the airspeed will bleed away very, very quickly if you don't clean up the configuration, go to max power on the good engine and secure and feather the bad in a timely fashion, and on some aircraft if you are already below Vyse you'll need to lose some altitude to get the airspeed back above blue line. Then, and only then, can you position and configure the aircraft for a landing. And the gear doesn't come down until you are committing to the field.

100% speculation on my part; time will tell. Godspeed

[pelmet]

UPDATE TSB #A16P0160: A privately operated Piper PA30 (Twin Comanche) aircraft, was on approach to Powell River, BC (CYPW) over the city when the pilot lost control. The aircraft descended in a tight spiral and collided with terrain in a clearing between an apartment building and a shopping complex. The pilot was fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed by the deceleration forces. There was no fire.

[AirFrame]

...Both throttles were forward, both props were forward...

Something that comes to mind when I see this: The levers were forward, but that could have happened due to deceleration forces if the pilot's hand/arm were shoving on them. Is it possible to see what position the propellor blades were in after impact? Just wondering if it's possible that he feathered the left engine, but still wasn't able to control it.

I'm not a twin pilot, but if i understand correctly, the left engine was the critical engine on this airframe... A left engine failure close to the ground seems likely to be a contributor to the accident.

[twistedoldwrench]

The blades on the RH engine were significantly bent backwards, banana shape consistent with engine developing power, the LH blades only exhibited tip curl, rotating, but no power.

[cncpc]

The damage pattern of prop blades is not a reliable indicator of much other than that there was an accident. I know the theories, and occasionally they bear out, but don't bet much on what the prop blades seem to be saying.

[AirFrame]

The blades on the RH engine were significantly bent backwards, banana shape consistent with engine developing power, the LH blades only exhibited tip curl, rotating, but no power.

That's a start, but I was wondering whether you could tell what pitch setting they were at... ie. did the pitch setting on the blades, match the pitch setting of the control on the panel?

The damage pattern of prop blades is not a reliable indicator of much other than that there was an accident. I know the theories, and occasionally they bear out, but don't bet much on what the prop blades seem to be saying.

Taken in isolation, maybe. Lots of things can affect how the propeller fares in an accident, but here we have two engines that hit the ground at about the same time, in about the same place, going about the same airspeed. So all things being equal, they should have similar damage patterns if they were both producing similar power (as suggested by the throttles being full power and the pitch being full fine).

I think in this case, the combination of an observed left-hand spin, right propeller twisted up a lot, and left propeller not twisted up a lot, supports the suggestion that the left engine wasn't producing as much power as the right. I'd go out on a limb and say that if the left tips had evidence of more than a couple of strikes, that it might suggest it wasn't feathered, too, but that would depend on just how curled the tips really were. Maybe the engine was at idle, or was still producing *some* power.

If it quit, and was feathered, i'd expect the propeller to stop almost immediately on impact. There would be minimal damage to the blades, apart from tip/leading edge damage from one or two strikes and maybe one of the blades would get bent straight back if it was at the right angle and dug in as the plane hit. There would be minimal evidence of rotational damage. If it wasn't feathered, it would be turning at high RPM and would get more tip damage on both blades, and more evidence of multiple rotating strikes before it came to a stop... There's no engine driving it, but it would still have significant momentum while turning at speed and that would have to bleed off. The right-hand engine would bend the blades into a curl and have lots of damage from many engine-powered rotating hits.

Again, I think these observations are mostly validated by the fact we have a twin-engined airplane here. If it was a single, I agree it would be hard to be really sure about anything.

[Antique Pilot]

First, I'd like to express my sincere condolances to family and friends involved.
There must be a general lack of info about this crash on line and I must say I am bothered by the circumstances of this accident. I did not know the pilot, but I know people that did. The news sayes TSB is investigating, well they showed up and said the evidence is that one engine wasn't making power- Ok by why???
By 4 pm that day the Rcmp was done, the TSB was done, and the insurance companies were looking for someone to keep the wreckage "secure".
The next day I was contacted by an organization tasked by the insurance co to help remove the wreckage, so I was involved in the clean up- I also have talked with eye withness's to the crash so I'm fairly confident in the information I am presenting here. My objective in this post is to bring about discussion of what may have gone wrong so others can avoid ending up in similar circumstances.
The aircraft looked to be in excellent condition with everything in top notch shape- I've been involved in maintenance for 39 years so I think I have a good idea on this!
So the chain of events as I know it, is that he did a fly by of the airport east to west, was a 8-15 knott SE wind blowing. Turned over the straight and was approaching the airport. By the time he was over the accident scene he was low and slow, possibly with engine problems- one or both unkown?, but by Joyce Avenue was below the runway elevation and in trouble. A stall to the left ended up in a 180* spin into the ground.
So here is what I have to offer - the enviromental conditions were 14.7 C temp, 11C dew point and 80% RH, if carburated would be prime condtions for carb ice- this A/C was fuel injected, RAYJAY turbo equipped. Both throttles were forward, both props were forward, mixtures were leaned, electric fuel pumps on, turbo's were backed off (manual control?), alternate air closed, cowl flaps open, flaps at approach and gear down. So normal reaction would to be to feather a bad engine and procede to land, but what if both were acting up ?? maybe the right regained power and caused uncontrollable yaw??
Well a very sad situation, My hope is that this info will stimulate some insightful understanding of what may have gone wrong!! Again my sincere condolances to those involved.

Please clarify if "mixtures were leaned". Might be a clue there if mixtures were indeed still in the lean position.

AP

[twistedoldwrench]

From my experience as a maintenance provider having worked on many Piper twin products in the past, I would say they were leaned out for max fuel economy, just above the "lean" marking, but not at Idle cut off, both in the exact same configuration. And with regards to the props, both were in the fine pitch position, the Left still on the engine, the Right separated from the engine. The impact damage indicated impact was nose and Right wing hitting the ground first.
I guess my original post was to see if anyone familiar with the type may have any ideas how could things go so wrong so quickly that the pilot wasn't able to react in time to avert the tragedy. From what I witnessed all engine controls were matched up on both engines. My initial thoughts were carb icing, but then I found it to be fuel injected aircraft. So I guess we may never know unless TSB has some recordings with Comox or other traffic we dont know about.

[AirFrame]

And with regards to the props, both were in the fine pitch position, the Left still on the engine, the Right separated from the engine.

Okay, that supports the theory that the left engine quit and then wasn't feathered. That would suggest extremely high drag on the left (critical) engine, right when operating in a low speed/high drag configuration... The worst time.

Again, i'm not a twin pilot, but i'm guessing my first instinct (to go full throttle on the remaining engine to compensate) wouldn't be the right thing to start with... You'd need to feather the left first, and clean up the airframe?

[cncpc]

From my experience as a maintenance provider having worked on many Piper twin products in the past, I would say they were leaned out for max fuel economy, just above the "lean" marking, but not at Idle cut off, both in the exact same configuration. And with regards to the props, both were in the fine pitch position, the Left still on the engine, the Right separated from the engine. The impact damage indicated impact was nose and Right wing hitting the ground first.
I guess my original post was to see if anyone familiar with the type may have any ideas how could things go so wrong so quickly that the pilot wasn't able to react in time to avert the tragedy. From what I witnessed all engine controls were matched up on both engines. My initial thoughts were carb icing, but then I found it to be fuel injected aircraft. So I guess we may never know unless TSB has some recordings with Comox or other traffic we dont know about.

I used to fly and give multi training in a Twin Comanche. What stands out is that for a little airplane with 160 horse a side, it has quite a high VMC. 90 mph if I remember correctly. Apparently it started out at 80 and a few crashed in single engine training/tests, so the FAA pencilled in 90 without testing that.

No feather, mixture dialed back, could it be that at 1000 feet the left quit from being too lean and it just wasn't detected as an engine failure with both throttled back, but when power was needed, he throttled forward, and it was just gone at that point?

Seems to me that if he knew he had one out, the mixtures would have been full rich from the start of the drill.

[pdw]

My objective in this post is to bring about discussion of what may have gone wrong so others can avoid ending up in similar circumstances.

What is the altitude once "turned over the straight" after "flyover"? This can confirm descent rate up to around 'one mile final' where is witnessed "low and slow". Abrupt leverage to full power possible if shallowed descent and still in slow-down to approach airspeed is taking place as stronger local winds increase gradually at the time. That loses the "15kts" on / above runway-hdg at a steady/firm rate for a smaller-looking but steady decay-rate potential, on account of a much-reduced SE component underneath toward the surface. Just a minor factor to consider, among others in this tragedy. My condolensces.