Citation down North of Kelowna

[CpnCrunch]

120 kt. groundspeed on the last hit could support that, but no mayday.

I would imagine he was concentrating on flying the plane, and didn't have time to make a radio call.

[J31]

The lack of CVR in general is really frustrating but the overall FDR / CVR abilities are terrible. In a world with super light and condensed flash storage it's really too bad every commercial aircraft doesn't have one. Most CVR's only have 2 hours of storage... cmon there is no reason it can't have 50hours on it.

An iPhone sized / weight device could be a little mini CVR / FDR, even if it just records gps position and used a little internal gyro similar to what an iPhone has at least all these aircraft that aren't currently required to have one will have some sort of data to go off of. It doesn't even have to be certified to the same high standards of an FDR currently so it could be made cheap like under $1000 cheap.

Yes the data recordings are cheap to make. However the problem is to have the data survive a crash.

This Citation was built in 1974 and as a private ship operated single pilot there is no regulatory requirement to have a CVR or FDR. Most likely no CVR or FDR.

Going to be tough to find out what happened.

Sad day.

[fixedpitch]

A 120 knots also suggests a stall/spin doesn't it? Especially if the speed was relatively constant over the last few thousand feet....

[cncpc]

A 120 knots also suggests a stall/spin doesn't it? Especially if the speed was relatively constant over the last few thousand feet....

It wasn't constant, but from the last "good" hit, there is only 1800 feet to the ground. And no data on the part below 4800.

Yes, it could be a stall spin, but the course is pretty well maintained after that hit and the aircraft goes a few clicks in the descent. The impact was vertical.

Edited:

If the last hit sourced from Center is accurate, and the 11 km north of Kelowna from TSB means YLW and magnetic north, then the aircraft went some 3.8 clicks pretty well on course after the 120 knot -2200 fpm hit. So it appears that directional control was being maintained.

[anofly]

Anyone forensically look at icing "forecasts" etc or at least upper winds temps etc for the area? I do not know how to look them up in the past, but someone on here will know how. Please post, thanks I have no horse in the race just wonder what else they could have been facing. Mind you with icing you probably would have made a squawk on the radio about a return or the nature of your problems.... There were bits of news of this weather system dropping 5 feet of snow at ski resorts....

[Saxub]

The amount of icing needed to take down a Citation 6 minutes after take off at that low of an altitude would have to be pretty severe, wouldn't it? Anyone who has flown one have any insight to how much I would need to be built up for that to happen?

[patter]

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaArchive.php?region=gfacn31

[cncpc]

The amount of icing needed to take down a Citation 6 minutes after take off at that low of an altitude would have to be pretty severe, wouldn't it? Anyone who has flown one have any insight to how much I would need to be built up for that to happen?

I did ask someone on that and you are correct. Not likely in that short period of time with a freezing level 3000 above, other than freezing rain. That wouldn't apply to an iced up sensor. I don't know the Citation system or what gear this machine had, but I would think it was likely on autopilot and a sensor wouldn't have iced up until around 5000. If the autopilot was in VS mode for a target altitude, would that not cause problems with pitch, while maintaining heading.

[Saxub]

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaArchive.php?region=gfacn31

So I see moderate mixed from fzlvl to 18000 in the area. No severe forecast? Unless I missed something.

[stef]

There is little to no information on this accident. Chasing your tails based on your own bogus information and speculation is an excercise in jerking off.

[co-joe]

There is little to no information on this accident. Chasing your tails based on your own bogus information and speculation is an excercise in jerking off.

I don't see it that way at all. We want to discuss what could have caused a crash. It helps us be safer pilots. Agree to disagree.


We have an Avcan-ite named "onceacop" is he accounted for out of curiosity?

[cncpc]

There is little to no information on this accident. Chasing your tails based on your own bogus information and speculation is an excercise in jerking off.

I don't see it that way at all. We want to discuss what could have caused a crash. It helps us be safer pilots. Agree to disagree.


We have an Avcan-ite named "onceacop" is he accounted for out of curiosity?

There is more than "little to no" information on this accident.

[bigsky]

We have an Avcan-ite named "onceacop" is he accounted for out of curiosity?

He is safe..harvesting corn!

[co-joe]

We have an Avcan-ite named "onceacop" is he accounted for out of curiosity?

He is safe..harvesting corn!

Good to hear, Losing Muchacho, and Just Curious were low points on the forum and in general.

[trey kule]

I don't see it that way at all. We want to discuss what could have caused a crash. It helps us be safer pilots. Agree to disagree.

How does that work? You do not know what was the cause of this accident. Just throwing out whatever idea pops into your head. Share with us, what you have learned.

Four people died in this accident. Are people here so insensitive that they really can not wait to speculate? There are few new causes of accidents. Do people really need that instant gratification?
Like the ghouls that gather at accident sites.

Why don't we all just sit back for a bit to allow for some resprct before tossing out any thought we have,...on the rationalization we somehow will be safer pilots as a result.

Yes accident reports take a year or so to come out. So what? Lots of old accident reports one can look at that are relevant.

There are some people here who do look at the old reports to see if we can gleam anything from them.

[godsrcrazy]

I don't see it that way at all. We want to discuss what could have caused a crash. It helps us be safer pilots. Agree to disagree.

How does that work? You do not know what was the cause of this accident. Just throwing out whatever idea pops into your head. Share with us, what you have learned.

Four people died in this accident. Are people here so insensitive that they really can not wait to speculate? There are few new causes of accidents. Do people really need that instant gratification?
Like the ghouls that gather at accident sites.

Why don't we all just sit back for a bit to allow for some resprct before tossing out any thought we have,...on the rationalization we somehow will be safer pilots as a result.

Yes accident reports take a year or so to come out. So what? Lots of old accident reports one can look at that are relevant.

There are some people here who do look at the old reports to see if we can gleam anything from them.

Couldn't agree more.

[Broken Slinky]

What's required for fuel management in a Citation? Sounds like the pilot had a full day. Being overly tired and ran the engines dry? Before he could get them fuel again, it hit the ground?

[pdw]

Could a dual engine flame out turn this aircraft into a -2200ft/min glider? Perhaps dual engine failure, ingestion of birds etc.? Lots of migratory bird activity in Canada recently. Even at altitudes above 5000'.

The second-last radar hit spans from 7000' on-the-way to ~ 8000' then down to 4800 in that radar-minute (9:35:12 to 9:36:12/ flighaware data) which works out to 4200' for total climb/descent there, not actually the "-2200"/min. The data shows speed via radar-pickup/calculation by 'minute' average, so the 2/3 minute from "8000' to that 4800' mark at 9:36:12 (3200' in ~40sec / ~ -4000'per min) is more than "120kts" (the radar measures kts only in horizontal plane); the extra ascent/descent distance has to be factored there in between those two hits.

[Mick G]

Why even have Pitot Heat as an option to switch on and off? Why not have it constantly on regardless of weather? Seems a safety design flaw.....

[Anthropomorphized]

Why even have Pitot Heat as an option to switch on and off? Why not have it constantly on regardless of weather? Seems a safety design flaw.....

Because of the time limit of having them on, on the ground. So they don't burn up.


It is always turned on just before takeoff regardless of weather.