Citation down North of Kelowna

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PilotDAR
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by PilotDAR » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:21 am

I read:
If a stall has happened, the first step to recovering and regaining controlled flight with positive lift, is to apply power and push the nose down to help regain airspeed over the wing.
Which is why:
PilotDAR wrote:

It alarms me terribly that application of power would precede reduction of AoA as a stall recovery technique.


Nobody said that...Mick was talking about simultaneous application of power and reducing AoA (I assume).
Also:
When you are close to the ground, isn't it better to do that than to reduce AoA and then apply power?
Probably, which is why I qualified my statement with:
The only time that could ever be a good idea would be if you've got the plane hanging on power too high to allow it to safely touch the surface but too low to allow for a reduction of AoA.
I have no idea if a stall is a factor in the sad accident of the Citation, I know nothing of the cause. So this could be thread drift, please excuse that.

I value the opportunity of pilots to have a timely and thought provoking discussion, which hopefully increases awareness, and helps to prevent future accidents. However, during those discussions, I find it un-nerving when less good techniques are advanced as good practice.

We fly aircraft with primary flight controls. Engine controls are not primary flight controls. That's not to say that that they cannot and should not be used while flying the aircraft, but in my opinion, the use of a secondary control in an aircraft should not by presented as the first action to take to correct an impending aerodynamic event which is undesirable. Pilots should be thinking AoA reduction first, with all other actions being secondary to that for stall avoidance and recovery. Having engine power applied does not return control of an aircraft, and in some cases may further reduce control - in the case of an approach to stall, the pilot must maintain/regain control, for which the primary flying controls are to be used.
I can not believe that training airplanes do not have AOA indicators in them considering how little it would add to the cost of the airplane.
Though I respect Cat's experience, and opinions, I do not go out of my way to support the idea of AoA indicators in light GA training aircraft. To me, the result of AoA information in these aircraft would be a student looking around the cockpit for one more gadget to further bury them in information, which must then be intellectually processed for the brain to add it to the sum of available information to then determine the next action (yes, I intended that long sentence). Rather, better to have less cockpit clutter, less information saturation, and simply train pilots to fly planes by feel and instinct.

I have only ever flown two production aircraft types which did not give adequate tactile warning, to an aware pilot, of an impending stall, and those two types were not CAR 3 nor Part 23 certified in Canada. Other certified types with iffy approach to stall feel will have stall barrier systems designed in, so the pilot does not have to search for the information. We installed an excellent AoA system in the 182 amphibian. I paid great attention to it when I was calibrating it. Once it was working as designed, I have no recollection of actually using it as an aid to flying. It works very well, I just don't bother to look inside the cockpit to gather information it is presenting when flying the 182.

We need pilots whose instinct is to reduce AoA at the approach to unintended stall. Thereafter, if necessary, power may be used to prolong the flight.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Rockie » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:28 am

PilotDAR wrote:We fly aircraft with primary flight controls. Engine controls are not primary flight controls. That's not to say that that they cannot and should not be used while flying the aircraft, but in my opinion, the use of a secondary control in an aircraft should not by presented as the first action to take to correct an impending aerodynamic event which is undesirable. Pilots should be thinking AoA reduction first, with all other actions being secondary to that for stall avoidance and recovery. Having engine power applied does not return control of an aircraft, and in some cases may further reduce control - in the case of an approach to stall, the pilot must maintain/regain control, for which the primary flying controls are to be used.
Precisely, and that is exactly why all major aircraft manufacturers have changed their stall recovery procedure to first reduce the angle of attack and get the wing flying again. Then power can be increased as necessary, which in reality can also be done simultaneously - but carefully. Your first reaction though is always to reduce the angle of attack.

All the power you have available will be of little use if the wing is still stalled, and may even exacerbate the situation depending on engine placement on the wing (underslung) and/or VMCA in the case of an engine failure. You might even already be at full power.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Mick G » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:29 am

pdw wrote:I believe some volks here were patiently waiting for Mick G to work us through the stall discussion (flying 101) a bit more ...
cncpc wrote:I'm wondering what scenario you envision where power had to be applied to get out of the stall. How would power have ever gotten back in the first place?
2nd Q
cncpc wrote:Mick. How does this stall happen ?
It's surely an easy enough topic for all of us to relate to. Why not give the answer a try when you get a chance ..
pdw, of course we are all speculating.....Icing would be my first thought, but Pitot heat would also seem a possible scenario (Remember AF447) Did pilot become incapacitated, maybe? was autopilot actually being used?
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by AirFrame » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:41 am

Old fella wrote:Plenty of speculation/conjecture from the various site posters, fair enough. TSB indicated it will be a challenging investigation so I guess it will be awhile before we know which speculator nailed it.
I'll put $5 on gravity bringing the plane down, and heart failure causing the deaths of all on board.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by ruddersup? » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:57 pm

My word, power up , nose down, power up , nose down?????
What if the wing did not stall but the tail stalled? Pushing forward wouldn't do much, IMHO.
Normal reaction should be push nose down "and" apply power. You have to do this in all circumstances regardless of how it stalls there is no time to analyze the situation. The pushing might not help at that split second but it certainly will become alive fast.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:30 pm


Though I respect Cat's experience, and opinions, I do not go out of my way to support the idea of AoA indicators in light GA training aircraft. To me, the result of AoA information in these aircraft would be a student looking around the cockpit for one more gadget to further bury them in information,
This company sells an AOA indicator that has a bright led light trend indicator that can be mounted in a position where it can be seen without looking at it.

Green is good, but when you see yellow you know you are reaching critical angle of attack.

These devices in my opinion would enforce the importance of AOA in the students mind without having them looking inside at the airspeed indicator which has lag anyhow.

When not needed or wanted the instructor can just turn it off.

Note:::

Every pilot should read this link because it will reinforce just how a wing fly's
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by pdw » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:41 am

That device appears to remedy where the earlier tip-off to add power becomes a necessity .. if i got that right
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by crazyaviator » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:25 am

We fly aircraft with primary flight controls. Engine controls are not primary flight controls. That's not to say that that they cannot and should not be used while flying the aircraft, but in my opinion, the use of a secondary control in an aircraft should not by presented as the first action to take to correct an impending aerodynamic event which is undesirable. Pilots should be thinking AoA reduction first, with all other actions being secondary to that for stall avoidance and recovery. Having engine power applied does not return control of an aircraft, and in some cases may further reduce control - in the case of an approach to stall, the pilot must maintain/regain control, for which the primary flying controls are to be used.
If close to ground in a small GA aircraft ( like a C-185 ) Applying power or full power whilst maintaining altitude ( not reducing aoa ) in an impending aerodynamic event may be a life saver instead of what we are "taught" EACH and every condition is different and requires different responses,, simply be prepared for the right response!!
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by OntheNumbers » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:14 pm

fish4life wrote:The lack of CVR in general is really frustrating but the overall FDR / CVR abilities are terrible. In a world with super light and condensed flash storage it's really too bad every commercial aircraft doesn't have one. Most CVR's only have 2 hours of storage... cmon there is no reason it can't have 50hours on it.

An iPhone sized / weight device could be a little mini CVR / FDR, even if it just records gps position and used a little internal gyro similar to what an iPhone has at least all these aircraft that aren't currently required to have one will have some sort of data to go off of. It doesn't even have to be certified to the same high standards of an FDR currently so it could be made cheap like under $1000 cheap.
Even a GoPro or similar pointing at the panel with cockpit audio feed would probably provide a lot of information. Limited in amount of srtorage, though.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by cncpc » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:24 pm

crazyaviator wrote:
We fly aircraft with primary flight controls. Engine controls are not primary flight controls. That's not to say that that they cannot and should not be used while flying the aircraft, but in my opinion, the use of a secondary control in an aircraft should not by presented as the first action to take to correct an impending aerodynamic event which is undesirable. Pilots should be thinking AoA reduction first, with all other actions being secondary to that for stall avoidance and recovery. Having engine power applied does not return control of an aircraft, and in some cases may further reduce control - in the case of an approach to stall, the pilot must maintain/regain control, for which the primary flying controls are to be used.
If close to ground in a small GA aircraft ( like a C-185 ) Applying power or full power whilst maintaining altitude ( not reducing aoa ) in an impending aerodynamic event may be a life saver instead of what we are "taught" EACH and every condition is different and requires different responses,, simply be prepared for the right response!!
Yes, I agree. The first effect of applying power or full power is to change the relative wind, hence the AoA, by increasing thrust along the thrust line.

There is risk in a prop plane from torque causing a wing to drop and a spin to start. In probably a good many prop planes, like the P51, I'd think you'd have to break the stall before adding any significant power.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by sportingrifle » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:46 pm

You pick an interesting example in the P-51. In a nose high attitude at the point of stall, adding power suddenly can cause the left wing to stall. The slipstream spirals around the fuselage and increases the angle of attack at the left wing root. There is a folklore legend that the P-51 has insufficient rudder and aileron at low speed and will "torque roll." Not true, in training we held the airplane in the stall buffet with full military (61" MP) power. It took about 1/2 of the available rudder and 3/4 of the available aileron, but the airplane was controllable. My instructor pointed out that the so often witnessed "torque roll" was usually the stalling of the left inboard wing root. This is the reason adding lots of power to correct a badly bounced 3 point landing is so hazardous.

Cat Driver has it right. Adding power during stall recovery can minimise the altitude loss. The resulting vectored thrust can reduce the weight that the wing has to lift and this will cause a reduction in angle of attack that will help alleviate the stall. But at the end of the day, wings unstall simply because their angle of attack is reduced - period. I make a point of flying any airplane I am learning on in the buffet/stick shaker for an extended period of time in all configurations until I am very familiar with what "too slow" looks, feels, and sounds like. Hopefully I will remember this when I need to.

Interesting as this discussion is, I want to re-iterate that at this point, we have no idea what caused this accident, and may very well never know. I don't want to leave anybody with the impression that I think the airplane was stalled.

Fly safe, fly the wing,

sportingrifle.

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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by cncpc » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:54 pm

sportingrifle wrote:Interesting as this discussion is, I want to re-iterate that at this point, we have no idea what caused this accident, and may very well never know. I don't want to leave anybody with the impression that I think the airplane was stalled.

sportingrifle.

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Most likely, autopilot disconnect not picked up till too late.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:03 pm

cncpc wrote:
Most likely, autopilot disconnect not picked up till too late.
How is that possible? Isn't there always some kind of very obvious and loud warning noise?
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by cncpc » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:22 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
cncpc wrote:
Most likely, autopilot disconnect not picked up till too late.
How is that possible? Isn't there always some kind of very obvious and loud warning noise?
I believe that's true. Didn't an autopilot disconnect or set to wrong mode play a role in the Resolute accident?

From my recollection I wouldn't describe it as very obvious and loud.

I think you mostly notice it as a sign that what you intended took place. You hear it if you are waiting for it. Maybe not so much when its by accident, happens at the same time as an ATC transmission, etc. The push to talk, trim, and autopilot disconnect buttons are kind of close together and its not unheard of to push the wrong one.

It's a hazard of having a passenger in the right seat as well, if that was the setup that night.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Aviatard » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:39 am

cncpc wrote: Most likely, autopilot disconnect not picked up till too late.
How did you arrive at this as the most likely cause?
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Say Altitude » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:14 am

Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:56 am

Say Altitude wrote:Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.
More info here:

"A statement released on behalf of the family of Jim Kruk on Saturday said the 62-year-old resident of Airdrie had been a pilot since 1976, and pursued aviation further in 2007 after a full career with the Mounties."

It looks like he was employed by a group of owners of the Citation (Norjet Inc) as their pilot.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by QFE » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:16 pm

IF: There was an engine failure.

There is an "Engine Out Complex Special" departure.

I can't imagine a single pilot operation going thru these
9 steps during an emergency operation.
IMHO
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by RatherBeFlying » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:48 pm

There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by crazyaviator » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:41 pm

There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.

AGREED ! However, if one wants to survive and not continue into the trees, one needs to add power at some point in the exercise :D
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by pdw » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:06 am

If you the pilot catch it early at stallspeed and in that second are not yet sure if completely stalled, you must initiate adding missing power while initiating the nose down for power. But at that point why send it into the steep dive when knowing you probably already have ice on it but when not yet necessarily completely stalled ?
RatherBeFlying wrote:There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.
Q here eventually is though, once completely stalled ... can they exit from deep stall with ice any different than the prop

Sure, if it's about staying out of complete stall upon noticing ... ie stick shaker ... that would be my guess is the description that would be unique to a jet even with any (unspecified) amount of ice
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by Mooney21 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:00 am

Say Altitude wrote:Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.
He was not a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot.

M
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:22 am

Here's the kicker if you add power at high AOA:

For propeller aircraft: You will develop a yaw rate by applying power. If it goes uncorrected, you may depart the aircraft.

For jet aircraft: Depending on where the engines are, applying power at high AOA may induce a pitch up moment further aggravate the stall.

It is critical to reduce the AOA before you apply power. By unloading, I do not mean sticking the nose forward. I mean easing the back pressure as to reduce the AOA below the critical AOA. As the AOA decrease, a smooth application of power while maintaining just below stall AOA will minimize your altitude loss.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by MUSKEG » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:55 pm

In the case of a C-500 adding power approaching the stall will actually push the nose down due no engines being high and aft.
I find it hard to believe that debilitating ice could form in 4 min when much of that time was flown in above freezing temps. It was +4 on the ground and the aircraft wouldn't have encountered ice until 4-5 thousand AGL. At 8 thousand aircraft would have been in ice for less than 2 min. I guess stranger things have happened. Lack of communication of any sort points me in another direction.
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Re: Citation down North of Kelowna

Post by cncpc » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:19 pm

MUSKEG wrote:In the case of a C-500 adding power approaching the stall will actually push the nose down due no engines being high and aft.
I find it hard to believe that debilitating ice could form in 4 min when much of that time was flown in above freezing temps. It was +4 on the ground and the aircraft wouldn't have encountered ice until 4-5 thousand AGL. At 8 thousand aircraft would have been in ice for less than 2 min. I guess stranger things have happened. Lack of communication of any sort points me in another direction.
The aircraft didn't reach 8000. 7200 and the problems started. The 120 knot speed from FlightAware was not accurate. It was higher than that. The -2200 fpm was accurate.
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