Citation down North of Kelowna

[Old fella]

Condolences to those affected as a result of this sad/tragic accident. Regardless of the final outcome from the TSB it is my considered opinion S/P ops in a turbojet aircraft should never be permitted under any circumstances.

I am assuming you mean commercial ops. Plenty of safe single pilot turbo jet aircraft out there. Just need to right pilots to fly them.

Nope. I mean no single pilot ops period in a turbojet that is capable to be in the mid 30 thousand and the 350kt range. All my BE90/100/200 C550 background has been 2 qualified pilots up front of which both have current PPC on types. Sorry but this is my view point.

['97 Tercel]

military jets aside is assumed

[Siddley Hawker]

Condolences to those affected as a result of this sad/tragic accident. Regardless of the final outcome from the TSB it is my considered opinion S/P ops in a turbojet aircraft should never be permitted under any circumstances.

+1

[teacher]

Just saw an aerial view of the crash site, it appears to have gone in vertical, no trail of debris, just the impact area. I hope there is a CVR and FDR for a hopefully quick report!

No CVR or FDR on board

Transportation Safety Board of Canada investigators looking into the plane crash that killed former Alberta premier Jim Prentice say there was no voice or data recorder on the plane, a fact that makes their investigation challenging.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/investigat ... -1.3117024

[fish4life]

The lack of CVR in general is really frustrating but the overall FDR / CVR abilities are terrible. In a world with super light and condensed flash storage it's really too bad every commercial aircraft doesn't have one. Most CVR's only have 2 hours of storage... cmon there is no reason it can't have 50hours on it.

An iPhone sized / weight device could be a little mini CVR / FDR, even if it just records gps position and used a little internal gyro similar to what an iPhone has at least all these aircraft that aren't currently required to have one will have some sort of data to go off of. It doesn't even have to be certified to the same high standards of an FDR currently so it could be made cheap like under $1000 cheap.

[rigpiggy]

How well did that work for the other ministers crash

[AirFrame]

Just saw an aerial view of the crash site, it appears to have gone in vertical, no trail of debris, just the impact area. I hope there is a CVR and FDR for a hopefully quick report!

No CVR or FDR on board

Interesting... The night after it happened the TSB rep was on TV saying there was a black box/cvr and they would be hoping to recover it.

[Saxub]

Could a dual engine flame out turn this aircraft into a -2200ft/min glider? Perhaps dual engine failure, ingestion of birds etc.? Lots of migratory bird activity in Canada recently. Even at altitudes above 5000'.

[tailgunner]

Dual engine failures are extremely rare, statistically speaking. Forgetting to put on the required anti-ice is a more likely cause, statistically speaking.

[cncpc]

Could a dual engine flame out turn this aircraft into a -2200ft/min glider? Perhaps dual engine failure, ingestion of birds etc.? Lots of migratory bird activity in Canada recently. Even at altitudes above 5000'.

120 kt. groundspeed on the last hit could support that, but no mayday.

[CpnCrunch]

120 kt. groundspeed on the last hit could support that, but no mayday.

I would imagine he was concentrating on flying the plane, and didn't have time to make a radio call.

[J31]

The lack of CVR in general is really frustrating but the overall FDR / CVR abilities are terrible. In a world with super light and condensed flash storage it's really too bad every commercial aircraft doesn't have one. Most CVR's only have 2 hours of storage... cmon there is no reason it can't have 50hours on it.

An iPhone sized / weight device could be a little mini CVR / FDR, even if it just records gps position and used a little internal gyro similar to what an iPhone has at least all these aircraft that aren't currently required to have one will have some sort of data to go off of. It doesn't even have to be certified to the same high standards of an FDR currently so it could be made cheap like under $1000 cheap.

Yes the data recordings are cheap to make. However the problem is to have the data survive a crash.

This Citation was built in 1974 and as a private ship operated single pilot there is no regulatory requirement to have a CVR or FDR. Most likely no CVR or FDR.

Going to be tough to find out what happened.

Sad day.

[fixedpitch]

A 120 knots also suggests a stall/spin doesn't it? Especially if the speed was relatively constant over the last few thousand feet....

[cncpc]

A 120 knots also suggests a stall/spin doesn't it? Especially if the speed was relatively constant over the last few thousand feet....

It wasn't constant, but from the last "good" hit, there is only 1800 feet to the ground. And no data on the part below 4800.

Yes, it could be a stall spin, but the course is pretty well maintained after that hit and the aircraft goes a few clicks in the descent. The impact was vertical.

Edited:

If the last hit sourced from Center is accurate, and the 11 km north of Kelowna from TSB means YLW and magnetic north, then the aircraft went some 3.8 clicks pretty well on course after the 120 knot -2200 fpm hit. So it appears that directional control was being maintained.

[anofly]

Anyone forensically look at icing "forecasts" etc or at least upper winds temps etc for the area? I do not know how to look them up in the past, but someone on here will know how. Please post, thanks I have no horse in the race just wonder what else they could have been facing. Mind you with icing you probably would have made a squawk on the radio about a return or the nature of your problems.... There were bits of news of this weather system dropping 5 feet of snow at ski resorts....

[Saxub]

The amount of icing needed to take down a Citation 6 minutes after take off at that low of an altitude would have to be pretty severe, wouldn't it? Anyone who has flown one have any insight to how much I would need to be built up for that to happen?

[patter]

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaArchive.php?region=gfacn31

[cncpc]

The amount of icing needed to take down a Citation 6 minutes after take off at that low of an altitude would have to be pretty severe, wouldn't it? Anyone who has flown one have any insight to how much I would need to be built up for that to happen?

I did ask someone on that and you are correct. Not likely in that short period of time with a freezing level 3000 above, other than freezing rain. That wouldn't apply to an iced up sensor. I don't know the Citation system or what gear this machine had, but I would think it was likely on autopilot and a sensor wouldn't have iced up until around 5000. If the autopilot was in VS mode for a target altitude, would that not cause problems with pitch, while maintaining heading.

[Saxub]

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaArchive.php?region=gfacn31

So I see moderate mixed from fzlvl to 18000 in the area. No severe forecast? Unless I missed something.

[stef]

There is little to no information on this accident. Chasing your tails based on your own bogus information and speculation is an excercise in jerking off.