TCAS RA between two DH8 at Sudbury

[timel]

http://avherald.com/h?article=49fe21aa&opt=0

The TCAS is a fantastic tool, every commercial aircrafts in Canada should have this equipment. There are multiple airports in Canada in class G airspace where you can be 3-5 arriving at the same time, it blows my mind how we have been able to avoid accidents.

Few years ago, we got really close to a Dash 8 and they had to change their trajectory during an approach, on their side they didn't do much position reports on the radio (airmanship?-other problems?), on our own we were blind and were aware of the event only after they called us on the radio, we didn't have any TCAS.

[Rockie]

Every 703,704 and 705 commercial aircraft over 5700 kgs does have to have it. TCAS in Canada is a classic example of public pressure and embarrassment forcing the government to act in record time to get something done that they showed zero interest in before.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ndate-tcas

[VSF]

I watched this happen as I drove to the hotel from the airport with my FO. Really, REALLY scary to watch. Interestingly, the article says the Jazz Dash followed the TCAS RA. I saw it perform a collision avoidance turn to the right. Since seeing it happen, I've been looking for it in the CADORs. So far, nothing has turned up.

[mbav8r]

I'm obviously very curious why the departing Jazz crew didn't appear to be aware of the Porter Q on final, it is a requirement to inform FSS 5 minutes prior to commencing any approach. At 8 miles final if they had not made contact with a position report this would be a violation. So, if the Jazz crew knew of this, why would they depart and climb straight out for almost 8 miles. Thankfully these are questions that will be answered first hand and not from just the CVRs.

[timel]

Every 703,704 and 705 commercial aircraft over 5700 kgs does have to have it. TCAS in Canada is a classic example of public pressure and embarrassment forcing the government to act in record time to get something done that they showed zero interest in before.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ndate-tcas

In my humble opinion, aircraft bellow 5700 kg should also have a TCAS, so it would include PC 12, Kingair 90–100, Mitsubishi-2 and others. The fact that in 2016 those 703 aircraft are still exempt from those regulations, shows how much the regulator is unfortunately living in a different reality, or is it just me?

Another point I want to bring up, how many times I have witnessed general aviation aircraft flying around airports in G airspace, passing in an 8–9 nm mile radius from the runway axes with no consciousness of how IFR traffics evolve around airports. I think it wouldn’t hurt to sensitize more this community to the importance to monitor 126.7, switch to airport frequency when in the zone and keep the transponder on, even if out of a terminal area.

[floatingbeaver]

We have tcas in our commercial Cessna 206 I believe it was 30k it well worth it

[Lotro]

Toronto Star story on the matter:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/201 ... craft.html

To help avoid delays, in good weather an aircraft can depart under visual flight rules (VFR) and pick up a clearance once airborne. That’s what happened in this case.

“The Jazz flight departed VFR, expecting to pick up his clearance once in the air. That’s fairly common at that kind of airport,” Webster said.

The normal separation standards for aircraft operating under instrument flight rules are 300 metres vertically and at least 5.5 kilometres horizontally, said Michelle Bishop, a spokesperson for Nav Canada.

However, because the Jazz aircraft had departed under visual rules, separation was based on “see and avoid” rather than set distances, she said.

I got confused on all the conversions because in aviation I work in feet ASL, or NM, not metres and kilometers, so I pulled more info.

CADORS report #2016O2907 reports the incident occurred on 14OCT at 1402Z.
"At approximately 4000 feet and 8 nautical miles Southwest of CYSB, both aircraft received a TCAS resolution advisory (RA). Radar data indicated that the 2 aircraft came within 0.4 nautical miles of each other at the same altitude. The TSB is conducting an investigation."

METARS from aviationwxchartsarchive.com :
CYSB 141300Z 20003KT 20SM OVC052 05/03 A3031 RMK SC8 SLP277
CYSB 141400Z 21004KT 20SM OVC045 07/03 A3031 RMK SC8 SLP276

No speculation from me, just a collection of available data.

~Lotro

[Heliian]

One of the aircraft in question went the opposite runway of everybody else. Saved a few seconds of time.

[valleyboy]

If the cadors and the eye witness are correct the aircraft did not follow an RA - now the question for the Q drivers out there, does the Q400 have a TA/RA selection or are they like other turbo props and have TA only because of lack of performance. If both aircraft received a RA there is no way they should cross that close at the same altitude and at 4000 ft the TCAS should not be Inhibited to TA only. it appears here that's all they got. The problem with TCAS is it does not always work and there are "blind spots" due to antenna(s) location(s).

The one downfall of TCAS is that guys in uncontrolled airspace start to depend on it too much and lean towards using it not as intended. It's like blind traffic advisories, which I figure most are no better than blowing your horn at a red light then proceeding on without stopping. Looking out the window is becoming a lost art.

Is TCAS a useful tool - certainly and should it be in all commercial aircraft -- without a doubt, but like todays tricked out cars it does have a negative side and gives pilots a sense of false security.

[swervin]

Yes the Q400 has TA/RA.

[fish4life]

I thought all 705 catagory required the RA portion as well but I could be mistaken.

[Rockie]

If the cadors and the eye witness are correct the aircraft did not follow an RA - now the question for the Q drivers out there, does the Q400 have a TA/RA selection or are they like other turbo props and have TA only because of lack of performance. If both aircraft received a RA there is no way they should cross that close at the same altitude and at 4000 ft the TCAS should not be Inhibited to TA only. it appears here that's all they got.

From the OP Avherald report:

"Climbing through 4000 feet about 8nm south of Sudbury the crew received a TCAS resolution advisory, the Porter Dash 8 also received a TCAS resolution advisory, both crews complied with their TCAS resolution advisories".

[valleyboy]

I thought all 705 catagory required the RA portion as well but I could be mistaken.

That is not a total correct statement. DC3 and DC3T do not and I suspect a 748 does not as well. I would like to know if the Dash 8 classics have RA. There is a performance criteria involved. Engine out procedures require RA selection to be made and this is due to performance limitations.

[Rockie]

I thought all 705 catagory required the RA portion as well but I could be mistaken.

That is not a total correct statement. DC3 and DC3T do not and I suspect a 748 does not as well. I would like to know if the Dash 8 classics have RA. There is a performance criteria involved. Engine out procedures require RA selection to be made and this is due to performance limitations.

There are a number of operators with exemptions to the TCAS/ACAS regulations for a number of reasons on a number of different types of aircraft including a lear jet. Performance is not cited as the reason on any of them that I can see. It's hard for me to imagine any of those airplanes meeting the engine out performance certification criteria but being unable to respond to a TCAS RA Climb on two engines. Engine out is a different matter that applies to any 2 engine airplane up to and including the B777, but that is an emergency situation. It is also permitted to turn off the RA function (in fact directed) during PMA approaches.

[mbav8r]

One of the aircraft in question went the opposite runway of everybody else. Saved a few seconds of time.

Can you clarify which one you're referring to?
It is very common to use the closest runway for departure or arrival when the wind is light or calm, in YZF, I would say 90% or more of the time I land north and depart south, it's up to ATC and FSS to provide appropriate separation/information to accommodate this. On many occasions I've been told that there will be a delay for inbound traffic if I want to depart opposite. On arrival, I've been denied the opposite runway for departing traffic. This is very common so I'm not sure your point!
To me it seems that there was information missing, ie; the Jazz crew were not made aware of the position of the inbound traffic.
As for the TCAS, it would have initially been presented as a TA and you can bet the crew would have been outside looking for the traffic, I don't know anyone when presented with an advisory doesn't start trying to acquire the traffic visually and based on the eye witness report of evasive maneuvers, I speculate the Jazz crew saw the Porter Q around the same time as they received the RA.

[Canoehead]

The Q400 has ability to be selected to TA mode only, and automatically is in TA only below approximately 1000' AGL.

There is no requirement to select TA only during engine-out ops. I would say based on the METARS showing above, high pressure and a cool temperature, combined with lighter fuel loads to/from YSB, aircraft performance would have been a non-issue.

The DH8 100/300 operate the same except TA only is selected for engine-out ops.

[gianthammer]

Could have all been avoided if ..

"conflicting traffic would have advised"

Oh Well live and learn for next time....

Remember kids.... Conflicting traffic please advise...

[lownslow]

Would be interesting to hear the tapes on this one. Most of the times I've been in and around Sudbury the radio communications are non-stop. It's like FSS gets paid by the word or something.

Easy to see how someone couldn't get a word in edgewise to advise position, if my suspicions are correct.

[Heliian]

Would be interesting to hear the tapes on this one. Most of the times I've been in and around Sudbury the radio communications are non-stop. It's like FSS gets paid by the word or something.

Easy to see how someone couldn't get a word in edgewise to advise position, if my suspicions are correct.

It's like it's a busy airport or something.

Your suspicions are not correct.

[av8ts]

After flying into YSB many times I would be very very surprised if YSB FFS had not advised the departing flight about the inbound flight. It may even be why they departed vfr