Soccer Team Charter Down in Columbia on flight from Bolivia to Medellin

[FAD3C]

I got a voice message from a friend, it is from an Avianca pilot who heard everything on the radio.
- Avianca flight got a clearance to hold at Rio Negro(VOR) at FL210 because there was a Viva Colombia flight who had declared an emergency due to a fuel leak
- Moments after holding while the VC was on approach, AV got further cleared to FL190. At this time, the BAE146(at a higher altitude than AV) came on frequency and requested priority due to a fuel problem and wanted to proceed to the localizer.
- ATC(female) said we cannot give you priority because of VC landing first due to their fuel leak.
- 146 starts descending fast and then declares Mayday
- ATC quickly instructs Avianca to turn left pick up a heading somewhere to their left due to the 146 descending rapidly
- the pilot telling this story said they even saw their lights coming down pretty fast
- ATC tells the 146 to proceed to the localizer for rwy 01 and asks to inform of the problem
- 146 gets going to the localizer and then says we now have total electrical failure, vectors to proceed to runway
- ATC: i have no radar contact
- 146: screams for help, vectors for the runway(in the background the captain is heard calling for the landing gear) they now sounded very desperate
- ATC: asked if they were on the 180R at 9000 8NM
- Avianca guy knew this location and is telling himself oh man they're going to hit terrain
- 146 kept yelling for help and vectors and the transmission stopped.

ATC controller was heard crying over the radio, Avianca crew cried as well, and heard Tower was also calling for them. SAR was activated, airforce deployed. Indeed a very tragic moment for all involved including Avianca.

Looking at world VFR on skyvector, in the Rio Negro quadrant, the lowest altitude is 12000.

Does the 146 have a RAT?

[cncpc]

This flight was to stop for fuel at Bogota. The captain, the owner of the airline, overflew it.

This has to be one of the most poignant and sad stories ever posted on AvCanada.

I know this poster. This isn't bullshit. Straight goods.

[North Shore]

anyone got a copy of the approach plate(s) handy?

[cncpc]

anyone got a copy of the approach plate(s) handy?

I saw a link on the other place, you know, the big place.

[frozen solid]

Does the 146 have a RAT?

The BAe 146 does not have a RAT. Nor, I'm compelled to add, does it have the ability to dump fuel.

[Jean-Pierre]

He radioed a total electrical failure...
Doesn't make sense. Be wary of this 3rd hand or 4th hand story of what happen. A lot gets lost in translation.

[FAD3C]

He radioed a total electrical failure...
Doesn't make sense. Be wary of this 3rd hand or 4th hand story of what happen. A lot gets lost in translation.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't have time on type so I am not able to analyze the situation with more depth. Maybe Mach7 can elaborate a little more since he/she has thousands of hrs on type.
And yes you may be right, a lot may get lost in translation. But this isn't 3rd or 4th hand. It was recorded by a pilot who was flying and heard it all, and that's what I have.

I'm curious to know how the systems work in a 146 specially the electrical system in a case of multiple gen failures.

[Mick G]

Without a RAT, surely there must be battery backup for primary instruments?

[Mach7]

The 146 has a bullet proof electrical system. Basically you have three levels of power which are; Normal, essential, and emergency.

The system comprises of three AC generators located off engines 1, 4 and the APU, two to three, (depending on mod status), transformer rectifier units to provide for DC power, a standby AC/DC generator that is driven from the aircrafts hydraulic system 3 (engine 3), a single phase standby static inverter, and two 28 volt nicad batteries.

Normal AC power is derived from either one of the three AC generators, and through the two TRUs to deliver the DC power requirement.

Generator 1 from engine 1 feeds channel one of the system and generator 4 from engine 4 feeds channel 2, each engine driven generator can cross tie automatically to the other side to pick up a failed generator's channel in the event of a failure. The APU can feed either channel and is suggested in the checklist following loss of an engine driven generator or engine failure.

Any one AC generator in the entire system can maintain the normal power level, meaning all services functioning. The only exception is the APU generator that can only supply all the AC and DC busbars with the exception of one....AC bus 2.

The TRUs can also automatically cross tie, so you will not see a degradation in DC power as long as you have an AC generator.

The essential power level is provided by the standby AC/ DC generator in the event you loose ALL the AC generators and will automatically start to give you limited amount of AC and DC power.This generator derives its power from the number 3 (engine 3) hydraulic system.

Emergency power is supplied by the two 28 volt nicad batteries, and one static standby inverter.

Another poster mentioned that they may have had a fuel leak (?). I would think after travelling that distance, and especially if the winds were not favourable, then there would be little fuel left over to leak.

Without going into detail, I have flown this aircraft with only one engine operating (engine 4) and an unservicable APU and have had zero loss of systems. All busbars powered and all hydraulics powered.

[Ki-ll]

The 146 has a bullet proof electrical system. Basically you have three levels of power which are; Normal, essential, and emergency.

The system comprises of three AC generators located off engines 1, 4 and the APU, two to three, (depending on mod status), transformer rectifier units to provide for DC power, a standby AC/DC generator that is driven from the aircrafts hydraulic system 3 (engine 3), a single phase standby static inverter, and two 28 volt nicad batteries.

Normal AC power is derived from either one of the three AC generators, and through the two TRUs to deliver the DC power requirement.

Generator 1 from engine 1 feeds channel one of the system and generator 4 from engine 4 feeds channel 2, each engine driven generator can cross tie automatically to the other side to pick up a failed generator's channel in the event of a failure. The APU can feed either channel and is suggested in the checklist following loss of an engine driven generator or engine failure.

Any one AC generator in the entire system can maintain the normal power level, meaning all services functioning. The only exception is the APU generator that can only supply all the AC and DC busbars with the exception of one....AC bus 2.

The TRUs can also automatically cross tie, so you will not see a degradation in DC power as long as you have an AC generator.

The essential power level is provided by the standby AC/ DC generator in the event you loose ALL the AC generators and will automatically start to give you limited amount of AC and DC power.This generator derives its power from the number 3 (engine 3) hydraulic system.

Emergency power is supplied by the two 28 volt nicad batteries, and one static standby inverter.

Another poster mentioned that they may have had a fuel leak (?). I would think after travelling that distance, and especially if the winds were not favourable, then there would be little fuel left over to leak.

Without going into detail, I have flown this aircraft with only one engine operating (engine 4) and an unservicable APU and have had zero loss of systems. All busbars powered and all hydraulics powered.

Is transponder powered by essential power from that hydraulic gen or emergency power from the battery? It seems like ATC lost their secondary target on radar. Which engine instruments are powered from those sources?
If engines shut off because of fuel starvation then I can imagine the cockpit will get dark pretty quick hence the electrical failure call, although probably all 4 can't quit in an instance, I think if they did they would quit consecutively.

[Mach7]

To my recollection, transponder 1 is available at essential power, however neither 1 or 2 is available at emergency power.

It does not really matter in which succession the engines failed if due to fuel starvation. Once the rpm gets below 50 percent N2 on engines 1 and 4, the IDG will no longer be able to maintain generator frequency, (400 hz @ 12000 rpm), and therefore the generators would subsequently drop off line. Once engine 3, (green hydraulic system) drops below 70 percent N2, it no longer has the motive hydraulic pressure or flow rate to turn over the standby hydraulic generator for essential power operation, so you are looking at battery power only after a short period of time.

Although a multiple engine loss may initially present itself as an electrical problem, it is definitely not the source, just the product of a possible fuel starvation.

With battery power only, they would still have VHF NAV 1, VHF COMM 1, ADF 1, Standby attitude, the left HSI and both servo altimeters, ALL engine N2s and TGTs, (you can get the N1 indications back if you select the engine start master ON, which will connect the emergency DC bus to the essential DC bus, however this operation will reduce your battery life).

There are many other service available as well, but not worth mentioning in this situation.

The bottom line here is you will lose your vertical reference units hence both main attitude indicators. the Captain will now have to fly the aircraft manually using the standby attitude indicator and whatever remaining instruments he has at hand, which in itself is not a difficult task, however it does take some discipline and focus under ideal conditions. If one has not performed this flight regime in the simulator, it can be quite challenging, and possibly, (in this case), overwhelming as it was evident there was much more going on.

[Mach7]

I forgot to mention as well in my previous post that these is a Flight Deck Emergency lighting system that will come on automatically when it senses a power loss to this magnitude, therefore there would have been illumination provided in this situation.

[Ki-ll]

To my recollection, transponder 1 is available at essential power, however neither 1 or 2 is available at emergency power.

It does not really matter in which succession the engines failed if due to fuel starvation. Once the rpm gets below 50 percent N2 on engines 1 and 4, the IDG will no longer be able to maintain generator frequency, (400 hz @ 12000 rpm), and therefore the generators would subsequently drop off line. Once engine 3, (green hydraulic system) drops below 70 percent N2, it no longer has the motive hydraulic pressure or flow rate to turn over the standby hydraulic generator for essential power operation, so you are looking at battery power only after a short period of time.

Although a multiple engine loss may initially present itself as an electrical problem, it is definitely not the source, just the product of a possible fuel starvation.

With battery power only, they would still have VHF NAV 1, VHF COMM 1, ADF 1, Standby attitude, the left HSI and both servo altimeters, ALL engine N2s and TGTs, (you can get the N1 indications back if you select the engine start master ON, which will connect the emergency DC bus to the essential DC bus, however this operation will reduce your battery life).

There are many other service available as well, but not worth mentioning in this situation.

The bottom line here is you will lose your vertical reference units hence both main attitude indicators. the Captain will now have to fly the aircraft manually using the standby attitude indicator and whatever remaining instruments he has at hand, which in itself is not a difficult task, however it does take some discipline and focus under ideal conditions. If one has not performed this flight regime in the simulator, it can be quite challenging, and possibly, (in this case), overwhelming as it was evident there was much more going on.

So that makes a little more sense now. What will serviceable fuel quantity gauges show once engines start flaming out? Zero or a certain quantity which is unusable?

I forgot to mention as well in my previous post that these is a Flight Deck Emergency lighting system that will come on automatically when it senses a power loss to this magnitude, therefore there would have been illumination provided in this situation.

Would it be full illumination or reduced?

[Ki-ll]

anyone got a copy of the approach plate(s) handy?

I saw a link on the other place, you know, the big place.

Ya mean PPrune?

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4a16583c&opt=0

[North Shore]

Informed speculation from elsewhere:

Rather than looking at distance travelled, look at time airborne. On average the AC will burn 2000kgs per hour, taking into account take off, climb, cruise and descent. The AC took off at 2218z and disappeared at 0255z. That's a flight time of 4:37hrs and roughly 9000kgs of fuel burnt. The max useable fuel quantity is 9300kgs. Unless pannier tanks were added (I personally don't think this is a financially viable option for a South American operator buying a relatively cheap regional jet). This would increase useable fuel to 10300. The AC definitely declared an electrical emergency. Then continued to hold PRESUMEABLY to deal with the checklist etc. To have a electrical failure due to lack of fuel is an idiotic assumption as the immediate emergency would be the flameout of engine/s.

[Ki-ll]

Informed speculation from elsewhere:

Rather than looking at distance travelled, look at time airborne. On average the AC will burn 2000kgs per hour, taking into account take off, climb, cruise and descent. The AC took off at 2218z and disappeared at 0255z. That's a flight time of 4:37hrs and roughly 9000kgs of fuel burnt. The max useable fuel quantity is 9300kgs. Unless pannier tanks were added (I personally don't think this is a financially viable option for a South American operator buying a relatively cheap regional jet). This would increase useable fuel to 10300. The AC definitely declared an electrical emergency. Then continued to hold PRESUMEABLY to deal with the checklist etc. To have a electrical failure due to lack of fuel is an idiotic assumption as the immediate emergency would be the flameout of engine/s.

The article on Avherald mentions that they started the approach without a clearance because of issues with fuel (this tells me they must have known they were low on gas), even though they were in a hold number three to land, then declared Mayday due to electrical problems. To me right now it seems like engine flameouts manifested themselves to the crew as electrical issues due to flashing lights in the cockpit, displays going blank etc. With N1 being lost without flipping a switch I can see how it could be difficult to diagnose the engine failures.

[Mach7]

Re North Shore's speculation from elsewhere,

With respect to the posters comments about 9300 kgs of fuel, this is assuming that the crew used the òverride`procedure when pressure fueling the aircraft.

If the system is set to `preselect`` mode, you cannot achieve full fuel, but somewhat less like in the ballpark of 19,600 or so. (Full fuel is 20,640 lbs).

So say that they took off with 19k and change, headwinds, cruise altitude, power settings all being a factor, I would say 4 hours and 37 minutes is a long time to spend in an RJ/146.

The RJ model also has the LF507 engines as well, which are very fuel efficient at high altitude, but tend to burn more than the AL502 series down low.

[Mach7]

Re North Shore's speculation from elsewhere,

With respect to the posters comments about 9300 kgs of fuel, this is assuming that the crew used the òverride`procedure when pressure fueling the aircraft.

If the system is set to `preselect`` mode, you cannot achieve full fuel, but somewhat less like in the ballpark of 19,600 or so. (Full fuel is 20,640 lbs).

So say that they took off with 19k and change, headwinds, cruise altitude, power settings all being a factor, I would say 4 hours and 37 minutes is a long time to spend in an RJ/146.

The RJ model also has the LF507 engines as well, which are very fuel efficient at high altitude, but tend to burn more than the AL502 series down low.

[Nark]

anyone got a copy of the approach plate(s) handy?

Ask and you shall receive.

[pelmet]

Apparently, they were on a flight that was very long range for type unless it had been modified with extra fuel tanks. Definitely talk of a fuel problem on the ATC recording but where does the electrical discussion potentially enter the picture?

Well, think about it. If you flame out an engine on many jets what is your first indication? A generator light(or message). Have you ever had an engine failure in real life or in the sim where the first thought you had was generator fault?

Flame out all four and you might get a statement of total electrical failure(exaggerated statement). Time will tell but this theory will possibly be looked into by the investigators in their analysis.