C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

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Cap'n Tripps
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C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#1 Post by Cap'n Tripps » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:19 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/coast-gua ... -1.3916407

Six people are missing after a plane disappeared over Lake Erie Thursday evening.

According to the U.S. Coast Guard, three adults and three children were aboard a Cessna Citation 525 that took off from Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland then disappeared from radar around 11:30 p.m.

The coast guard said the cause of the disappearance is unknown.

"They dropped off radar shortly after takeoff," said Petty Officer 2nd Class Christopher Yaw of the U.S. Coast Guard. "The area where they dropped off was about two miles [three kilometres] offshore in Lake Erie in about 51 feet [16 metres] of water."

The search is continuing, but no sign of debris or the people who were aboard the plane had been spotted as of Friday morning.

The coast guard said weather and high waves prevented a boat search overnight, but a U.S. helicopter and Canadian C-130 plane were being used.

"The sea state was 12 to 15 foot [4.6 metre] waves with 30 to 35 mile per hour [56 km/h] winds plus, add on top of that, the lake-effect snow that was off and on all night," said Yaw. "It made it very difficult for visibility."

The U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Bristol Bay, which is stationed in Detroit, joined the search Friday morning.

The six people, whose identities haven't been released, were headed to Ohio State University Airport in Columbus, Ohio, when the plane disappeared.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#2 Post by fche » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:23 am

Cap'n Tripps wrote: Plane in crash off Pelee Island ice-laden, overloaded: report
That part of the quoted article applies to the 2004 Caravan crash, not yesterday's crash.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#3 Post by Cap'n Tripps » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:54 am

Corrected. That's the problem with wholesale copy/pasting.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#4 Post by Old fella » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:04 pm

From what I read the private pilot was CEO of a Beverage Distribution Company who owned the C525c, single pilot operation, wife and teenage sons along with neighbor and his/her daughter. Attending a Cleveland caliviers basketball game and departed for home after the game. This is third accident that I know of this year involving Citation jets single pilot ops auguring in the ground subsequent loss of life.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#5 Post by Taxivasion » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:54 am

been in here many times at night after a baseball/basketball game. With the international airport being fairly close they give you an immediate Right turn (North) over the lake at below 2000ft ASL if departing to the west. Once over the lake you get into a blackhole effect situation really quick. This may catch some by surprise. My .02
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#6 Post by av8ts » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:58 pm

I would think he would be IFR wouldn't he? Black or white or purple outside would be irrelevant.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#7 Post by lownslow » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:13 pm

av8ts wrote:I would think he would be IFR wouldn't he? Black or white or purple outside would be irrelevant.
You would think so, but it really does catch people off guard. Your sense of balance is strong and it takes a fair bit of IFR experience to overwrite that with "trust your eyes and what the instruments show."

The rating does not prove that you can force your body to go against instinct in every possible scenario, just that you performed a certain sequence of maneuvers well enough on one day.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#8 Post by ditar » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:45 pm

There was a similar Citation crash a few years ago into Lake Michigan that was ultimately attributed to mismanagement of a runaway trim situation. I wonder if this is something similar. It's a scenario that FlightSafety stresses quite heavily in training.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#9 Post by armchair » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:53 pm

lownslow wrote:You would think so, but it really does catch people off guard. Your sense of balance is strong and it takes a fair bit of IFR experience to overwrite that with "trust your eyes and what the instruments show."

The rating does not prove that you can force your body to go against instinct in every possible scenario, just that you performed a certain sequence of maneuvers well enough on one day.
Very good point which is not driven home enough for many qualified IFR pilots, including professional pilots, not only CEOs who own and fly their own jets with precious cargo (family...). These types of accidents are so heartbreaking because they keep happening over and over again. Night IMC take-offs such as this one should give the pilot a minimum of 3 minutes of straight out with no turns, in order to acclimatize, clean-up the gear and flaps and allow your head to stay ahead of the aircraft. Screw ATC if they ask for an immediate turn or turn as soon as possible. Only turn when aircraft is stable, your head is stable and ask your passenger to monitor the AI for you... no shame in that. RIP
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#10 Post by Rookie50 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:17 pm

armchair wrote:
lownslow wrote:You would think so, but it really does catch people off guard. Your sense of balance is strong and it takes a fair bit of IFR experience to overwrite that with "trust your eyes and what the instruments show."

The rating does not prove that you can force your body to go against instinct in every possible scenario, just that you performed a certain sequence of maneuvers well enough on one day.
Very good point which is not driven home enough for many qualified IFR pilots, including professional pilots, not only CEOs who own and fly their own jets with precious cargo (family...). These types of accidents are so heartbreaking because they keep happening over and over again. Night IMC take-offs such as this one should give the pilot a minimum of 3 minutes of straight out with no turns, in order to acclimatize, clean-up the gear and flaps and allow your head to stay ahead of the aircraft. Screw ATC if they ask for an immediate turn or turn as soon as possible. Only turn when aircraft is stable, your head is stable and ask your passenger to monitor the AI for you... no shame in that. RIP
From a low IMC experience PPL, this is excellent advice -- even for night VMC takeoffs over dark terrain in a piston. Thinking also runway 9 ottawa rockcliffe, the last third of the runway isn't lighted, and then over the dark river. Total black hole effect. Not a comfortable feeling.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#11 Post by Old fella » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:04 pm

My understanding aircraft involved was a Citation 525c, lots of automation in it to assist in getting squared away after departure even in challenging situations ie immediate turns, low initial climb to altitudes and the like. I would imagine single pilot operations would make that quite busy keeping ahead of the aircraft tossing in communication, navigating and flying....... pile this on top of a possible low time non professional pilots who own such ac types. It's easy to understand the Aviation Superhighway or dirt road if you wish has been littered with aviation kill from such types of operation(high performance airplanes, SP, low time, owner operated) over the past few decades.

Single pilot operations shouldn't be approved in these types of airplanes.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#12 Post by '97 Tercel » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:08 pm

So is this a Canadian plane based in YYZ? Anyone know the reg?
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#13 Post by RatherBeFlying » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:12 pm

Even VFR takeoffs at night over a black hole have caught out quite a few.

If a wing starts going down without your noticing it, game over in about 20 seconds.

If you're not strictly on your scan on every black hole takeoff, we'll be talking about your accident eventually.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#14 Post by Taxivasion » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:30 pm

'97 Tercel wrote:So is this a Canadian plane based in YYZ? Anyone know the reg?
No, Ohio
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#15 Post by ChrisEvans » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:43 pm

Aircraft is N614SB CJ4 525C-0072 delivered new in 2012 as N65CD to Venezuela as PR-VZN
It was sold to Superior Beverage Group of Columbus Ohio on Oct 14 2016
Owner previously owned Citation 510 N814WS which he bought in 2014 and sold last month.

It does have a CVR on board.

Image
at TNCC on delivery to Venezuela
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#16 Post by armchair » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:13 pm

I recall a similar accident in Algonquin Park a few years ago when a successful businessman was flying home to Sudbury from Kingston, later at night than previously planned, and he lost control in IMC and killed his family too. On another occasion a dentist was flying out of Philadelphia back to Ontario and killed his family of 4. ON another a successful luxury home builder in the Outaouais named Louis-Seize crashed his R44 in Lac Simon in blackout conditions. 2 out of 4 survived but him and another drowned. The accident files are overflowing with similar cases, but few systems are left in place to share lessons learned and for pilots to learn from others mistakes. So many businessmen, doctors, dentists and other such with more money than brains have met that same fate: thou can afford it therefore thou shall not dare flying commercially like other peasants.... I don't feel so bad for the egotistical pilots involved but more so for those relatives and friends they killed in vain. Finally, as an aside, I am horrified at how TC and TSB have totally dropped the ball in terms of safety promotion and education - for pilots and AMEs in particular. No more regional safety conferences, seminars, RASOs, mailed-in safety magazines, posters or pamphlets. The mentality of all pilot-hating managers at TC is that the first person to arrive at a crash site is not worth the effort. The last straw of TC incompetence is this drunk slovak temporary foreign pilot Miroslav Gronych, put in the cockpit of a Sunwing 737 under the current TC regulations allowing drunk dickwads to take canadian pilot jobs. Minister Garneau, I hope you get your ass out of your ex-astronaut mindset and address those issues soonest.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#17 Post by cncpc » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:49 pm

armchair wrote:The accident files are overflowing with similar cases, but few systems are left in place to share lessons learned and for pilots to learn from others mistakes. So many businessmen, doctors, dentists and other such with more money than brains have met that same fate: thou can afford it therefore thou shall not dare flying commercially like other peasants.... I don't feel so bad for the egotistical pilots involved but more so for those relatives and friends they killed in vain.
Very valid point underlined.

I saw Ahramin respond to someone taking a Chief Pilot position and asking for advice. His good advice was to go through accident reports related to the new CP's position. And, in commercial aviatiion, people are paid to do that and it can be time consuming, but I do think having that practice sets out very good ops managers and CP's from merely Transport Canada approved.

That whole safety "net" of regulation, recurrency, and most importantly, external validation, is missing in private aviation. Which puts pax at risk when Therman Munson Syndrome comes into the cockpit of the plane they are travelling in.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#18 Post by pdw » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:31 am

"Therman Munsun" final approach was in doing crosswind circuits rwy19 /182T in winds from 280 at the time of the accident .. and closest wx-hist both CLE and YNG north of Akron show the 25C/26C (a spike in temp/pressure) and both show approx 15kts-NW 4pm Aug2 1979 (keeping in mind it's usually muchless-strong at the surface) . A different practise-experience would happen than was expected (seeing the previous practise-approaches on that same runway were 80-90deg/lighter crosswind) when this gust from 310 (130-140deg taiquartering) was transitioned.

In observation: This latest tragedy in the same area can also fall under some shear-accident suspicion in addition to the spacial disorientation idea, .. the climbing turn North into that strong left crosswind perhaps is a much stronger encounter (esp with any tailquartering effect thru the last few degrees of turn) than the "PK WND 260 35kts" recorded at BKL/surface lee of the city "ca 2300"(ASN) on Thursday night.
The powerful lake effect wind brought snow streamers all the way to Niagara on the Lake at the time (where i live) northeast off that lake, which is rare unless the lakewinds are whipping-up very strong across warmer water.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#19 Post by av8ts » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:18 am

English damn it pdw, english
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#20 Post by Mick G » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:25 am

Hey armchair.....what a great rant!! Love it
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#21 Post by pelmet » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:05 am

av8ts wrote:English damn it pdw, english
The English translation is...it is never the pilots fault for doing stupid stuff, always the wind somehow not being completely calm.

In reality for this case, we know extremely little and there may not be much more hard evidence to come out of it.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#22 Post by Taxivasion » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:08 am

PDW is a troll... ignore him
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#23 Post by Rookie50 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:12 am

cncpc wrote:
armchair wrote:The accident files are overflowing with similar cases, but few systems are left in place to share lessons learned and for pilots to learn from others mistakes. So many businessmen, doctors, dentists and other such with more money than brains have met that same fate: thou can afford it therefore thou shall not dare flying commercially like other peasants.... I don't feel so bad for the egotistical pilots involved but more so for those relatives and friends they killed in vain.
Very valid point underlined.

I saw Ahramin respond to someone taking a Chief Pilot position and asking for advice. His good advice was to go through accident reports related to the new CP's position. And, in commercial aviatiion, people are paid to do that and it can be time consuming, but I do think having that practice sets out very good ops managers and CP's from merely Transport Canada approved.
Respectfully, total crap. Stupidity in killing oneself and passengers isn't confined to buiness guys with money, and is well represented in commercial ops of all types. The North is littered with airplanes, eg. Gee, the well regulated FTU's, should be the safest operation out there, think nothing of sending a flight instructor and 2 kids into convective night IMC. Don't label business guys across the board.

FWIW I fly low end stuff, the guys I've met flying higher stuff -- never met one that safety wasn't an obsession, they went to flightsafety, Ect. This blanket cowboy image is totally wrong.
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#24 Post by armchair » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:58 am

Fair enough that we shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush and common sense prevails that most pilots - private and commercial - are indeed very safe. To frame the particular issue is to narrow it to the pressure to make it home in marginal conditions. Most accidents of this type involve some type or variety of get-home-itis. Got to be back home for this or for that.... The other is currency.. Not easy to zip on your pilot suit and be expected to be in character immediately with friends around. In fact the majority of the mistakes I made in my piloting career involved private or non-revenue flights with guests or friends, where my attention was divided between my guests and the job of being PIC.

I terms of our Cessna pilot here, he certainly was no cowboy, no issue here. But consider the new upgraded version of the Citation, with 5 eager family members, added to the workload of single pilot IMC... It adds up and dont forget questionable currency. The black hole catches many pros, including the two ORNGE pilots who lost a S76 in a blackhole departure in Northern Ontario, killing 4. John Kennedy Jr did fall victim to visual illusion too. Twice in my 30+ years career I had my partner intervene to take controls when I had the leans on a night take-off. Not easy on your pride but the dude next to me was on the ball doing his job and saw I was struggling and took control. I did the same to others a few times as well. That is why 2 heads are always better than 1 in IMC. Peace out
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Re: C525 goes missing over Lake Erie with 6 aboard

#25 Post by Rookie50 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:10 am

armchair wrote:Fair enough that we shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush and common sense prevails that most pilots - private and commercial - are indeed very safe. To frame the particular issue is to narrow it to the pressure to make it home in marginal conditions. Most accidents of this type involve some type or variety of get-home-itis. Got to be back home for this or for that.... The other is currency.. Not easy to zip on your pilot suit and be expected to be in character immediately with friends around. In fact the majority of the mistakes I made in my piloting career involved private or non-revenue flights with guests or friends, where my attention was divided between my guests and the job of being PIC.

I terms of our Cessna pilot here, he certainly was no cowboy, no issue here. But consider the new upgraded version of the Citation, with 5 eager family members, added to the workload of single pilot IMC... It adds up and dont forget questionable currency. The black hole catches many pros, including the two ORNGE pilots who lost a S76 in a blackhole departure in Northern Ontario, killing 4. John Kennedy Jr did fall victim to visual illusion too. Twice in my 30+ years career I had my partner intervene to take controls when I had the leans on a night take-off. Not easy on your pride but the dude next to me was on the ball doing his job and saw I was struggling and took control. I did the same to others a few times as well. That is why 2 heads are always better than 1 in IMC. Peace out
Good comments. Specific aircraft or conditions, might be a different conversation. Look at say a PC 12, highly automated systems. Lower workload.

SP with Pax can be distracting. I make no bones about being a low time amateur. With my family (or anyone) I've long had a silence rule below 1000 AGL, and especially a night departure. Really take my time on those, and I've felt weird stuff too on a night or IMC departure.

I don't mix night and IMC, not experienced or current enough. I study accidents and don't like the huge spike in night ops. Getting ever more wary of night, even VMC. A different class of airplane, if I ever luck into a SE turbine, would be more comfortable in that aspect.

You're right for the non pro SP there is a lot less support. I have always had mentors I sought out and talked about how stupid or not my flying decisons were, so much gray in that regard.

I think pro or non pro, it's simply being willing to say no, wait, or divert. Done all of these. I do think training family to shut up or help monitor is important, too, or at least not be a distraction. Can kiss and make up on the ground. :)
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Last edited by Rookie50 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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