Short flight but very long taxi

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godsrcrazy
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by godsrcrazy »

Mick G wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:My apologies, I cannot verify the authenticity of the rumour nor can anyone know for sure what had happened. My reply was in context to the DC-3 pilots taxiing over unimproved terrain with the consequences of an incident compounding in such a remote region ,,,, cowboy mentality. I did not intend to sully anyones reputation
I can't understand everyone attacking crazyaviator for the .."cowboy mentality" statement. A 4nm taxi off strip on uneven and unimproved terrian, fully loaded is just that....cowboy mentality. Unless someone can somehow explain this and justify this reckless decusion by the flight crew, it represents a complete failure of judgement and is seemingly reckless imo.
I have a hard time believing these guys decided to taxi 4 miles for $hits and giggles. I can only speculate that they determind is would be easy on the aircraft and less stress then landing and taking off on unimproved strips i.e. hard packed snow drifts.

As far as JC goes i have a hard time believing he was cowboying around down there. We all make mistakes and it could be one as simple as a wrong altimeter setting. We will never know as the decision to leave the crew remains and the aircraft were it sits has been made.

Rest in peace boys.
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Canoehead
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Canoehead »

Put 4 miles into perspective. It's four 6000' runway lengths. I've taxi'd a couple of miles worth of "winter strip" before to inspect it. I've done the same in my Q400 in YAM to verify a runway was safe to depart off of.

Never flew in the polar regions, but I'm pretty sure that sometimes "thinking outside the box" becomes a requirement. This crew didn't just decide for the hell of it to do what they did. Element of risk involved? Yes, but that's what pilots are tasked with managing. Unfortunately they had a snag with this sortie. Reckless, or cowboys? I'd say not even close.

I'm thankful for what I learned in 'the north'. Had to think outside the box a few times myself. For all those salivating at the opportunity to fly at a 705 operator as soon as you possibly can, consider the experiences you will miss out on. Some that could someday save your ass.

Sorry to digress... totally a different thread...
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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

These pilots were not likely taxiing on a taxiway or a runway, they were going cross country! Did they employ skidoos or other tracked vehicles to mark a suitable taxi route??? Most likely a COWBOY maneuver ! About 82% of all accidents are pilot ERROR!!!
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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

The current location had been used for approximately 10 years and required that the drums be dug out of the snow every six weeks.
Why would they be dug out of the snow EVERY 6 weeks FOR 10 YEARS ? Why couldn't they have found a spot earlier? COWBOY !
The first load was loaded and the aircraft lifted off to search for a new site by air.
WHY would you fully load an airplane in the most difficult place on the earth, with flammable fuel,,,THEN go and LOOK for a new cache place ( and land at high weight and full of flammable fuel on a glacier )
COWBOY!

On the return trip it was decided that once the fuel drums were loaded they would attempt to taxi the 4nm to the new site since it was so close
WHY would they not taxi the return trip with an empty and LIGHT weight to test the "unproven and unsurveyed" surfaces before loading up and taxiing back to the new cache site?

COWBOY !
the left main gear struck a snow covered, hard packed snow drift causing the left main gear to slowly collapse
If the DRIFT was covered by soft snow,, were they taking their chances every time they plowed into a SOFT drift, hoping not to hit a hard drift under the soft snow drift?

COWBOY !
. An additional aircraft was dispatched to the site
Were they trying to damage the second aircraft too, knowing ( now) that it was an area of hidden hard drifts?

COWBOY!
no hazardous material was released
Hmmm, Were they going to send out a 10 million dollar clean-up crew to mop up a drum of kerosene, if it spilled IN ANTARCTICA LOL


I sure hope it was just a very poor/ illiterate reporter!!!
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Meatservo
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Meatservo »

Eh. Whatever.
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Last edited by Meatservo on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by PilotDAR »

I'd rather be reading about a lesser damage taxiing incident, than a serious damage flying accident. Good for the crew that they chose to be cautious, and not fly, but rather taxi, for whatever their reasons where. To me there's nothing "cowboy" about a non collision, taxi speed event, which was carefully planned and within operational guidelines, just bad luck. There might be a small lesson to be learned from this, but in any case this is not a crew who deserves any criticism from anyone here.....
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by goingnowherefast »

I don't expect answers to these questions, they're just points to ponder by those so quick to judge.

What's the take-off and landing distances of a fully loaded DC-3T in those snow conditions, with drifts and at that altitude and temperature? Perhaps in those conditions they would be using a reasonable amount of the 4 miles regardless.

If they had tried to take off along their taxi route, would they have hit the same snow drift at near take-off speed? 1200m is only 3900'

How rough was the terrain, and was taxiing perhaps a safer option?

I'm going to bet that those guys did what they thought was safest, and it was still relatively safe given it is Antarctica. All that happened was some bent metal.
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Cat Driver »

Anyone here know what advantage wheel skis on a DC3 offer?

Crazyaviator you must know.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

I'm going to bet that those guys did what they thought was safest, and it was still relatively safe given it is Antarctica.
Yep, and I'm sure the captain who ran out of fuel and crashed in the DC-8 while holding for an hour, looking at a gear indication problem whilst 2 other pilots did nothing ,,, thought he was doing the safest thing too !!! There are 2-3 other large famous accidents resulting from incredibly poor CRM and criminal pilot decisions, while looking at a gear indicator light.
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fish4life
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by fish4life »

Crazy perhaps the place they were flying to wasn't in good shape and could have resulted in a problem landing, maybe the place they were at wasn't going to result in a safe take off, maybe taxing and airplane was the only way to move fuel drums it's not like you can just drive to these places and move shit with a cat train. I don't think in any way these guys were cowboys they were operating in an area of the world that is extremely tough with little to no support I bet they actually have great CRM because without working together you would never get anything done. Stop trying to arm chair QB from your world of hourly weather reports and runway surface conditions.
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by PilotDAR »

Well, if CRM in Borek flown DC-3's is the topic, I'm here to say that it's excellent! I've flown jump seat in the DC-3's with many Borek crews, and will again this week. You could not ask for more in experience and teamwork than what I have seen from those crews.

The well known accident of the L1011 CFIT because of crew fixation with a landing gear indicator was certainly a learning event, and probably pivotal in CRM development. It was already a case study for the CRM training I took when I flew as co pilot in the early '80's. I think that it's established history, and not really a worrying point now! CRM works, and I have seen it in action, in Borek flown DC-3s!
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Cat Driver »

Borek only hires and sends the best pilots in the industry to the Antarctic....period.

To smear their crews by calling them cowboys only shows the abject ignorance of the subject by this poster that is smearing their reputation.

A few of us here understand how difficult those conditions are and would never embarrass ourselves by calling a Borek crew cowboys.

So I am waiting for crazyaviator to tell me what advantage wheel ski's are on a DC3 when operating off airports in the Antarctic or the Arctic.
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godsrcrazy
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by godsrcrazy »

Cat Driver wrote:Borek only hires and sends the best pilots in the industry to the Antarctic....period.

To smear their crews by calling them cowboys only shows the abject ignorance of the subject by this poster that is smearing their reputation.

A few of us here understand how difficult those conditions are and would never embarrass ourselves by calling a Borek crew cowboys.

So I am waiting for crazyaviator to tell me what advantage wheel ski's are on a DC3 when operating off airports in the Antarctic or the Arctic.
Plus 1. While crazyaviator is answering your question maybe he can tell us how many hours he has spent flying in the antarctic. Surely he must have a few years there and know the area well calling others cowboys.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

The gear incident will most likely never be "investigated" ( no injuries etc) therefore it is conjecture what exactly had happened. I am only replying to the CADORS report and what it is describing. I Am sure that KBA do quite well both in the arctic and antarctic etc. I am saying that pilots are fallible and that risk management is variable with variable outcomes. MOST low level aerobatic airshow pilots would call their flying part of their career and are professional about it. From a by-standers point of view , they are cowboys !
I have been to the arctic but never did business in the antarctic.
So I am waiting for crazyaviator to tell me what advantage wheel ski's are on a DC3 when operating off airports in the Antarctic or the Arctic.
Isn't this question self explanatory?

Were the wheel-skis in the wheels down position? ( more stress on the airframe if hitting hidden hard drifts) or wheels up position ( possibly less control on hilly terrain ) ?
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godsrcrazy
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by godsrcrazy »

[quote="crazyaviator"] MOST low level aerobatic airshow pilots would call their flying part of their career and are professional about it. From a by-standers point of view , they are cowboys !
I have been to the arctic but never did business in the antarctic.

So you have never been in the antarctic but some how feel you have the knowledge of the area and conditions to call these guys cowboys. You may want to change your name to By-standers. As you mentioned these individuals have no idea how professional air show pilots are. They feel they are all a bunch of cowboys. Obviously you feel the same about people working in the antarctic as you have no idea what steps they have taken to be safe.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

Perhaps the folks in the pointy end can come forward and tell us what exactly had happened ( 3 years later, through a third, anonymous person, of course)

There are good cowboys ( extreme airshow performers ) and bad cowboys ( a pilot who cannot even do a low and over to show friends without crashing and burning) To even fly in the antarctic, you need to have a little cowboy in you :) ( A positive thing ) Taking too many unnecessary chances whilst there may be indicative of a bad cowboy ! Do I know whether the DC-3T pilots were bad cowboys or took unnecessary risks? I cannot know, I was just going off the report !
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Cat Driver »

You are demeaning them by calling them cowboys, however your opinion is based on pure ignorance so it is worthless.

By the way I spent eight years as an airshow pilot all over Europe and I can assure you that if the examiners who issued my airdisplay license had even the slightest suspicion that I was a cowboy they would not have issued nor renewed my license.

I am not too upset about your thinking everyone with talent are cowboys though because you are abysmally ignorant of the subjects you are opining on.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Hockaloogie »

On the other hand, he is an excellent troll.
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by Cat Driver »

Yes he / she might just be a troll.

In which case the value of this forum is being degraded.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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crazyaviator
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Re: Short flight but very long taxi

Post by crazyaviator »

Here is my definition, posted earlier:
My definition of cowboy mentality is doing something above and beyond the norms of an accepted standard with acceptable limits of safety. I have been a cowboy on occasion, in the past in my 50 years in aviation, but doing something safely to near my limits for me may seem really foolish or "cowboy attitude" to someone else. My side hobby is hang gliding, which is both a very safe sport and a very dangerous one ,,,, I choose to be conservative when hang gliding and it is pretty safe for me.
By the way I spent eight years as an airshow pilot all over Europe and I can assure you that if the examiners who issued my air display license had even the slightest suspicion that I was a cowboy they would not have issued nor renewed my license.
You fit MY definition of a good cowboy, You have taken an airplane designed for the purpose and taken it to near its limits AND your limits SAFELY for numerous times !! Is it riskier than sitting in a chair watching red bull? YES, Is it an accepted and manageable risk for YOU? YES ! An armchair quarterback sits in a chair and eats food and wishes he were on the field, A true quarterback is out in the action, KNOWING the risks and managing it as best as possible under the conditions ! An IDIOT takes a plane that is not approved for a maneuver and does the maneuver at low altitude without the training or experience and often enough dies ( Buzz jobs)
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