172 wire strike Duncan BC

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Walker
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: Left Coast... (CYYJ)

172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Walker » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:53 pm

---------- ADS -----------
  

rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by rigpiggy » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:33 am

---------- ADS -----------
  

FishermanIvan
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by FishermanIvan » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:13 am

rigpiggy wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3943898

Any news on the crew?
Student pilot was transported by ground ambulance to hospital, the instructor was airlifted to hospital. I've heard she's "okay" but banged up pretty well.

She was my old instructor at VFC, so I'm glad she's alive, that's for sure!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by AirFrame » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:43 pm

Apparently initially airlifted to Victoria, but yesterday was airlifted to Vancouver for surgery. No details on how critical or what the injuries were.
---------- ADS -----------
  

praveen4143
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by praveen4143 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:32 am

CHEK reports Duncan aerodrome as "an extremely short runway" which is a bit of an exaggeration. 1500 asphalt is plenty long for a C172, I'd think...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by AirFrame » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:08 am

For landings and takeoffs, yes, but for touch-and-goes (reportedly that's what they were doing) it's a lot tighter than someone from VFC would be used to seeing, both in length *and* width. It sounds like the "student" was already a licensed pilot, so they were probably off doing some short field training/practise?
---------- ADS -----------
  

sportingrifle
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:29 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by sportingrifle » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:00 am

We are all hoping and praying so hard that this instructor makes a full recovery. If anyone has any updated news, a PM would be very appreciated. We have a pretty good idea of the chain of events that led up to this accident. One "take away" for all of us is that Duncan is like an aircraft carrier - steep cliffs on all four sides. If you operate out of Duncan or any other airport with a cliff at the end, it is worth remembering that the moment you cross the threshold at low altitude, you will instantly be out of ground effect. This factor was not the cause of this accident, but was probably a factor as to why the lightly loaded airplane initially didn't climb.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FishermanIvan
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by FishermanIvan » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:26 am

So Kristen was hurt badly in this accident, and if you feel like helping out with her recovery, head on over here.

https://www.gofundme.com/kristen-ursel
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Rowdy » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:17 pm

Spinal Injuries suck. I know exactly how much they do personally. My heart goes out to you my fellow aviator! I wish you the speediest of full recoveries!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mick G
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Mick G » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:24 pm

I've never flown into that airport, but maybe they should they put coloured ball markers on the power lines or bury them if they are in the way of active aircraft.

Such a horrible outcome, quadriplegic would be a horrible life
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:52 pm

Mick G wrote:I've never flown into that airport, but maybe they should they put coloured ball markers on the power lines or bury them if they are in the way of active aircraft.
You're nowhere near any wires on a normal takeoff from there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P78dU5M3dUs

(see 55 seconds). The wires are below the level of the trees, and I'm pretty sure both the trees and the wires are below the runway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4216
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:18 pm

If they hit the power lines that I saw in the video, there was definitely other factors involved in this accident
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mick G
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Mick G » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:06 pm

Gosh, I see what you mean. Will be interesting to see the accident report.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:44 pm

Mick G wrote:Will be interesting to see the accident report.....
It seems unlikely that the accident report (if there is one) will tell us anything of significance that we don't already know.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local ... -1.8238259
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4216
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:23 pm

praveen4143 wrote:CHEK reports Duncan aerodrome as "an extremely short runway" which is a bit of an exaggeration. 1500 asphalt is plenty long for a C172, I'd think...
1500' seems like a very short runway for touch and go's in a plane like that. Is there not a longer runway nearby for practicing this sort of maneuver. Duncan looks like a place better suited for maximum performance takeoffs and landings.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3032
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by PilotDAR » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:13 am

1500' seems like a very short runway for touch and go's in a plane like that.
I know many people who could happily perform full stop landings and takeoffs in a 172 in 1500 feet. My visit to Duncan showed me a runway which demands precise flying, which is what should be being trained.

Go Fund Me tells me that I'm the 164th person to make a donation. Let's be supportive of our fellow pilot as though they were in the plane and needed our help. Each one of of us would spend our gas money to search for them right? This pilot is lost a different way, and still needs our effort....
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:37 am

pelmet wrote: 1500' seems like a very short runway for touch and go's in a plane like that. Is there not a longer runway nearby for practicing this sort of maneuver. Duncan looks like a place better suited for maximum performance takeoffs and landings.
They don't use Duncan for touch+goes. They use it for short-field takeoffs and landings. The instructors generally don't do touch+goes there, but they don't have any specific rule against it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:19 am

PilotDAR wrote: I know many people who could happily perform full stop landings and takeoffs in a 172 in 1500 feet. My visit to Duncan showed me a runway which demands precise flying, which is what should be being trained.
POH says 1300ft @ 2200lb for full stop takeoff+landing ground roll, but I imagine it wouldn't be too kind of the brakes.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mick G
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Mick G » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:19 pm

Maybe its time the airport closed, the gravel pit is encroaching further and further.........
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18920
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:29 pm

If a runway is long enough to take off from why is it not long enough to do touch and goes?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7418
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by photofly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:15 pm

You need less room for a touch and go than a regular takeoff.

However to do a touch and go in less room than a regular takeoff you also have to a) have great technique, so as to touchdown right at the threshold and depart immediately, and b) even more importantly, great judgement so that you abort before the "touch" in situations where a) hasn't been achieved and the "go" would cause problems.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:21 pm

Also, with electric flaps you need to wait for them to go up to 10 degrees, which will take a few hundred feet at least.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7418
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by photofly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:27 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:Also, with electric flaps you need to wait for them to go up to 10 degrees, which will take a few hundred feet at least.
There's nothing stopping you from doing a touch and go with 10 degrees of flap. Or no flap at all.

There's also nothing stopping you from doing the go with 20 degrees of flap. (I have definitely been flown around the entire circuit in a 172 with flaps at 40 degrees because someone forgot to put them up).

Also raising the flaps from 20 to 10 degrees takes no more than two seconds, during which time a 172 at a ground speed of 50 knots has travelled about 170 feet.

If you fly into the trees merely because you're waiting for the flaps to come up, I think you may need to readjust your priorities.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2972
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:45 pm

photofly wrote: There's nothing stopping you from doing a touch and go with 10 degrees of flap. Or no flap at all.

There's also nothing stopping you from doing the go with 20 degrees of flap. (I can't count the number of times I've been flown around the entire circuit in a 172 with flaps at 40 degrees because someone forgot to put them up).

Also raising the flaps from 20 to 10 degrees takes no more than two seconds, during which time a 172 at a ground speed of 50 knots has travelled about 170 feet.

If you fly into the trees merely because you're waiting for the flaps to come up, I think you may need to readjust your priorities.
There's nothing stopping you doing any of that, but flight schools want you to use 30 degrees for a short field landing as per the POH, and they will want you to take off with 10 degrees, as per the POH. So if you touch down 600 ft down the runway and you're a bit slow with the flaps it could be 500ft remaining. What speed are you going, and do you have time to stop if you change your mind about the touch+go? What if there's a 5kt tailwind (quite often the windsocks point in different directions)? Also bear in mind the 0.5% upslope.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7418
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 172 wire strike Duncan BC

Post by photofly » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:51 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
There's nothing stopping you doing any of that, but flight schools want you to use 30 degrees for a short field landing as per the POH, and they will want you to take off with 10 degrees, as per the POH.
Mostly, in my experience, what flight schools really want is that you bring the aircraft and occupants back safely. YMMV. Following the recommended procedures in the POH is often a pathway to achieving that end. Adherence to the POH is not an end in itself.
So if you touch down 600 ft down the runway
See my previous post about having the judgement to abort the manoeuvre early, and if you're going to touch down too far along the runway for a safe departure, abort the manoeuvre. There's no one with a gun to your head forcing you to land. Not at any flight school I've trained at, anyway.
and you're a bit slow with the flaps
It's up to the pilot not to be slow with the flaps. It's up to the pilot to do lots of things correctly, all in a sensible order. There are lots of operational errors that will end up with you in the trees. Don't make those errors. Simple, isn't it?
it could be 500ft remaining. What speed are you going, and do you have time to stop if you change your mind about the touch+go?
As stated earlier, it's important to abort the manoeuvre before the touchdown, if you don't have room for the departure. That was my point about judgement being even more important than skill. There are lots of situations in flying where you can fly yourself into a situation from which safe recovery is impossible. This is just one example. It's part of piloting to avoid getting into those situations, either by heroic skill, or more simply, by changing your mind before it's too late.
What if there's a 5kt tailwind (quite often the windsocks point in different directions)? Also bear in mind the 0.5% upslope.
Indeed, what if? What is your point?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”