Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

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URC
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Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by URC »

Aviation Incident Report#14635: A Jazz de Havilland DHC-8 (JZA8319) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Sault Ste. Marie, ON (CYAM) landed on runway 30 without declaring his/her intention over the mandatory frequency to land. The Sault Ste. Marie Airport Development Corporation had runway snow removal maintenance vehicles carrying out snow removal on runway 12/30 while the aircraft landed. Blower 142 was blowing windrows off the runway approximately 30 feet inside runway edge, while Truck/Sweeper 88 was doing a turn on the threshold of runway 12 at the same time.

Audio on LiveATC ...

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviati ... -vehicles/
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.
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teacher
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by teacher »

crazyaviator wrote:The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.
I've gone in a bunch of times and if no one is monitoring no one will answer. It is actually possible that the #2 radio was faulty. It sounds like the Jazz pilot is keeping his cool trying to figure out what happened rather than getting excited.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

Finger trouble or U/S comm 2 either way, it was a SNOWSTORM with low clouds and poor visibility and ALL the Aircraft inbound knew there were snow clearing ops going on !!
Remember there were 2 PILOTS on board and min 2 comms AND how many innocent passengers?
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by CpnCrunch »

crazyaviator wrote:The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.
The idiot on avcanada didn't bother reading the report, which clearly says the radio wasn't transmitting or receiving properly :)

So, how do you actually know whether your radio isn't working, unless you do a radio check every time you transmit?

The only rule they might have broken is 705.47(2), unless they got an ATIS on the other radio.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

705.47 (1) No person shall conduct a CAT II or CAT III precision approach unless

(a) the air operator is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate; and

(b) the approach is conducted in accordance with the Manual of All Weather Operations (Categories II and III).

(2) No person shall terminate an instrument approach with a landing unless, immediately prior to landing, the pilot-in-command ascertains, by means of radiocommunication or visual inspection,

(a) the condition of the runway or surface of intended landing; and

(b) the wind direction and speed.

This may not affect them but what may is the fact that they had known about runway clearing in progress and also indicated they had troubles talking to sunwing on that radio,,,,,,, They OBVIOUSLY could not see well enough to see not 1 but 2 SNOW CLEARING vehicles on the runway. Would it not have been prudent to call centre or switch radios or do a missed and visually inspect the runway whole length ?
The idiot on avcanada didn't bother reading the report, which clearly says the radio wasn't transmitting or receiving properly :)
Finger trouble or U/S comm 2 either way,
tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO
Who is the idiot? there are 2 passages above I wrote about the U/S #2 comm
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by CpnCrunch »

crazyaviator wrote:
Who is the idiot? there are 2 passages above I wrote about the U/S #2 comm
If you re-read my comment you'll see it was a joke. Poking fun at you calling the Jazz pilot an idiot.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

No Worries ! :D

The vis was 1/4 mile and 200 miles VV ( 200 feet) RVR 2400 variable to 6000 feet? Based upon the weather reports the pilots would not likely have seen the total runway length,,,, therefore the only other option is through radio communications to ascertain that the runway was clear of vehicles/ snow drifts etc. How many pilots would have done a missed and how many would try another radio? 1 in 10 ? 1 in 2 ?
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

IF Jazz hit the plow and 20-50 people died what do YOU think the TSB findings would be ? what would be a logical recommendation(s) ? I for one would suggest that during ALL snow clearing ops, radio communication SHALL be established with the appropriate ground facility, landing clearance be given AND OR a missed approach be commenced when the RVR/ weather indicate that the pilots do not have any certainty of seeing the whole runway length. BUT, alas, we will have to wait for a good number of deaths until safer procedures are established at outlying / limited staffed airports. ( remember Dryden and icing? )
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?
Exactly !

How long and how many deaths before we get staffing and rules to reflect this impending accident ?
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teacher
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by teacher »

When the tower is closed the ATIS says "Sault tower is closed......"

You call the MF and get no answer on comm 2. Comm 1 is on Toronto centre and comm 2 is used to call the MF and give an eta to traffic. You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.

No answer doesn't necessarily mean comm failure. I've been to the Sault for years and no answer means nobody listening/there. Even in IMC conditions.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

Those who think out of the box/ are proactive and make rules for the betterment of safety are considered revolutionaries. Those who make rules and demand changes after the smoking black hole are called reactionaries

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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.
AND THAT is where the positive bias and reinforcement that there is no need to get ANY reply OR no need to do a missed/ low and over to inspect runway UNTIL the big smoking black hole fixes this present problem!
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teacher
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by teacher »

crazyaviator wrote:
You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.
AND THAT is where the positive bias and reinforcement that there is no need to get ANY reply OR no need to do a missed/ low and over to inspect runway UNTIL the big smoking black hole fixes this present problem!
Not saying I am right. Just saying what may have happened. Usually I use comm 1 as primary communication and when switching to the MF go back to comm 1. These guys clearly stayed on 2 on the hand off from centre which I have done on occasion. Something to learn for all after this near accident.
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av8ts
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by av8ts »

I do the same Teacher. Comm 1 is the primary radio. I just talked to atc on it so good chance it works. When radio is closed and no ne else on freq your just doing transmissions in the blind so really you can't be sure. And when weather is at mins you cannot see if entire runway is clear. This is the way the system works at many small airports and not changing any time soon
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

crazyaviator wrote:
How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?
Exactly !

How long and how many deaths before we get staffing and rules to reflect this impending accident ?
How would that work at places where there is no radio? What about off-strip landings?

The current rules are fine.

CARS 602.96 (2)

Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that

(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle; and

(b) the aerodrome is suitable for the intended operation.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

Back on Feb 11 1978 a PWA 737 took off from Calgary for a 23 min flight to Cranbrook. At the time there was NO requirement to contact aeradio inbound after being cleared for the approach to the uncontrolled airport. Vis was 3/4 mile in snow. It was normal practice to call Skookum inbound ( but NOT mandatory) and give an ETA. Aeradio notified PWA that there was a snow sweeper ON the runway ! PWA arrived NOT at the estimate given to aeradio. 737 did a go-around after touchdown to miss the sweeper, unfortunately, the thrust reverser deployed and did them in . 42 dead 5 injured.

Aeradio: And three one four. The-er-sweeper on the runway-er has
been for some time trying to keep the snow back for
you. I'll let you know what it's like as soon as I get
a progress from him. And the visibility - not much
change in the weather - maybe visibility about three
quarters of a mile in snow.

Pilot: Three fourteen checks.

P Where the hell did he come from?

P We're gonna crash -

What have we learned since 1978? 1) Establishing contact was not mandatory 2) No need to ascertain runway was clear , ( the aeradio would have taken care of that ), a mindset by the pilots ? 3) there was NO control of the situation, Aeradio was advisory and his transmission may have been vague or missed by the pilot.

In BOTH instances, Neither pilot established that the runway was clear 2) Proper communication was either not received or acted upon 3) At an uncontrolled/ remote comm airport with tower off duty,,,,,,, regulations and procedures did NOT provide CONTROL of the aircraft and/or separation of aircraft and vehicles on the runway

MAYBE we did not learn anything ? Maybe we need 100 charred and dismembered bodies this time?

When will the powers that be decide that when we have an international airport , having scheduled and charter commercial traffic who are on the ATC system, must have a completion of the flight with the same standards of control, safety and oversight .

And the answer is: $$$$$$$$$$$$ / Death ratio
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

This is called risk management. The severity of an occurence (in this case, fatal so extreme severity) vs the likelyhood of an occurence (in this case, very unlikely). This is not something that happens often, there isn't much traffic at those airports and the risk is mitigated by pilot training and radio communication. While it is entirely possible for a chain of events to unravel that will end up in a fatal accident, the low risk of an occurence combined with the mitigation doesn't require anymore action. This is not the type of occurence we hear about very often.

If you were to absolutely remove all risk from aviation, we would not fly or even taxi an aircraft. There is an inherent risk to flying and to flying in bad weather. All you can do to have safe, operationally sound air traffic is manage risk.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

In the SOO, It sounds like ( on ATC audio ) the Airport snow removers were providing airport info/ runway suggestions and separation , based upon estimates and inbound calls !!!! EDITED
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

in the Cranbrook accident it only took 2 holes to line up in the swiss cheese model , eta and vehicle on runway transmission, pilot forgetting or not hearing
In the Soo near accident it took only 1 hole to line up ( radio failure)

That is NOT risk management
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Donald
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Donald »

AuxBatOn wrote:How would that work at places where there is no radio? What about off-strip landings?

The current rules are fine.

CARS 602.96 (2)

Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that

(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle; and

(b) the aerodrome is suitable for the intended operation.
Exactly.

Many moons ago, when I was in the training department for a northern operator, this scenario was often discussed during rides and TC inspectors would use it as well:

What are your approach minimums when landing at an airport without a radio operator?

The preferred answer was circling minimums, so you could verify the winds and that the runway was unobstructed.
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

Donald wrote: Many moons ago, when I was in the training department for a northern operator, this scenario was often discussed during rides and TC inspectors would use it as well:
There are several ways of ensuring nobody is on a surface you are about to use. Visually is obviously one. From a straight-in, if visibility allows you to see your landing surface or from a circling otherwise and with comms, with an FSS or radio operator, or other vehicles on the airport (sweepers, other aircraft, etc). If it is snowy or was snowy recently, or the AWOS says there are workers on or close to the runway, I'll probably require some sort of additional confirmation that the runway is indeed clear. Otherwise, if there was no recent snow, and I do not hear anyone on frequency, I may decide to land from a straight-in, even with limited visibility, justifying 602.96 by the lack of communication of the frequency and the abscence of recent snow.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by crazyaviator »

Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that

(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle; and
and I do not hear anyone on frequency, I may decide to land from a straight-in, even with limited visibility, justifying 602.96 by the lack of communication of the frequency and the abscence of recent snow.
You are making a simple ASSUMPTION and putting at risk every innocent passenger in the cabin !!! PROBABLY the same thing the soo and Cranbrook pilots did ( 4 of them )

Its either/ or ( or both) either you can establish communication OR you MUST ascertain there is NO risk of collision on the runway.. You go against the regulation and will do the same as the SOO dash 8 or the PWA 737,,,,, It shows that in the current climate, pilots cannot always be trusted to do the right thing
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

So anytime the weather is below circling minima, and nobody is answering to your call, you divert to your t alternate?
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