Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:18 am

av8ts wrote:Maybe it's because they are on coffee break and left the trucks running

Transponders can be turned off and on it would obviously be procedure to only have them on when working on the runway
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rxl
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:53 am

Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:12 pm

TCAS alerts should be inhibited when you are that close to the ground if not it is a system issue.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:25 pm

rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Mayor_McCheese » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:54 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...

Agreed. RWSL is primarily based on ASDE information, which is not in place at YAM and the majority of airports across the country.
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rxl
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:22 pm

RA's are inhibited but TA's should still work.
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rxl
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:25 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
Like I said ... all it takes is money.
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MUSKEG
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by MUSKEG » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:04 am

I think it would be easy to have the radios on these vehicle set up to broadcast on the MF any time they are on the runway or within 100 feet of it. A simple " vehicle on runway" broadcast every 30 seconds might solve the problem. Once vehicle was clear another message indicating so.
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Mayor_McCheese » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:52 pm

rxl wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
Like I said ... all it takes is money.
Sure, with unlimited $$$ almost anything is possible. But there's no chance of anyone investing that kind of money in the size of airports we're talking about here.
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Canoehead
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Canoehead » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:29 am

The lesson learned at the expense of this crew's close call is to be diligent in the correct operation of the radios. Ultimately Comm#1 should have been the primary radio used for ATC/MF/ATF comms. Yes the mandatory "warning" calls might be made on #2, but when YYZ Center says "cleared enroute freq" or "switch to mandatory" or whatever verbiage they're using, then that frequency should be used now on Comm#1. You know #1 works; you were just using it. #2 is pressed into action at a critical time, and realistically it may not have been used since who knows when. With ACARS it's possible to go through the better part of a day without using it. Maybe longer. I'm not throwing stones here; truly a lesson learned.

FWIW, I know the CA, and he's truly top shelf. Certainly is not an "Idiot" as implied by crazyaviator.
If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.
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TheStig
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by TheStig » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:25 am

Finally had a chance to listen to the ATC recording. What an interesting scenario, amazing how latently a near disaster occurred. From a broad perspective; there look like three main elements, weather, an uncontrolled airport and a failed radio.
Canoehead wrote: FWIW, I know the CA, and he's truly top shelf. Certainly is not an "Idiot" ..
I think it's way too easy and not constructive to say, "this would never happen to me because I always do this.." or "these guys are idiots." I have no doubt they are excellent pilots and this could have happened many pilots (but not all the experts found here;)

1) The weather - Not much we can do about that.

2) Uncontrolled Airport
mbav8r wrote:Maybe all air carriers need to stop operating into airports without at the very least a FSS on duty! If they stop, it will force the hand of the airport to have proper staffing especially if snow clearing is in effect.
Couldn't agree more. Our passengers pay far too much money into our Nav and Airports for what is being returned in services. Had two way communications been expected the pilots would have been made aware of their failed VHF2. Passengers deserve better, pilots deserve better.

3) I'm not sure what Jazz's SOP's or FOM state or what guidance is offered for VHF communications at uncontrolled airports. With a proper SMS system and threat mitigation system in place they should now identify this as a weakness and potential hazard to be addressed. Procedures should be modified accordingly and hopefully we can all learn a valuable lesson without anything being written in blood.
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by URC » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:28 pm

I fly scheduled ops to many airports in Canada, I've never flown to YAM. In my experience at other airports when the Tower closes communications are taken over by the local or a remote FSS. has this always been the case at YAM, that when the Tower closes you are on your own ? Are there any other airports in Canada, with scheduled airline service, where this is also the case ?

Airlines schedule a lot of early morning head start flights, and later night arrivals to end the day and terminate for the overnight. Sometimes it can be one of the busiest times of the day at these smaller airports, yet f'ing Nav Canada can't be bothered to keep their Towers open during these times. The real idiots here are the brain trust at Nav Canada and Transport Canada that allow this nonsense to happen in the first place.
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sstaurus
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by sstaurus » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:14 am

Canoehead has it right. Might even be SOP at most shops already, a simple memo to remind people about that fact would suffice.
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Mayor_McCheese » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:19 pm

URC wrote:I fly scheduled ops to many airports in Canada, I've never flown to YAM. In my experience at other airports when the Tower closes communications are taken over by the local or a remote FSS. has this always been the case at YAM, that when the Tower closes you are on your own ? Are there any other airports in Canada, with scheduled airline service, where this is also the case ?
I can't answer your question about other airports, but no, this was not always the case at YAM. Until a few years ago (not sure how many, I want to say 5ish) there was on site FSS when the tower was closed. But the tower hours were also less at the time, I believe it was 8am-8pm for tower then FSS overnight. Now tower operates 6:30am-10:30pm local time.
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