Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life »

I think I have got an easy solution, install a transponder in all airport vehicles.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

oldncold wrote: my only comment is this> the more hours one flys the risk of familiarity creeps into the risk mgt equation . in order to guard against this risk ,it requires the application of an open mind and respect for fellow co pilots opinions . it would seem in this particular circumstances that respect was missing.
Sure but this would not be comducted nearly enough to maintain any sort of useful familiarity.
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Maynard
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Maynard »

Crazyaviator, are you even a pilot? Reading your posts sounds like you don't have a clue how th world works. (Do a circling or runway inspection at 3/8sm vv200??? What???? Sounds like a splendid idea...
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Cat Driver »

Crazyaviator, are you even a pilot?
If he/she is then aviation is doomed if that mentality can hold a pilot license.

We can only hope the first part of his / her name is correct and the aviator part was just added to make it look like he / she can post on an aviation forum.
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Rookie50
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Rookie50 »

fish4life wrote:I think I have got an easy solution, install a transponder in all airport vehicles.
That is not a bad idea.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Cat Driver »

That is not a bad idea.
A very affordable solution so why don't they do it?
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Eric Janson
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Eric Janson »

Cat Driver wrote:
That is not a bad idea.
A very affordable solution so why don't they do it?
They do it at Dubai International (OMDB/DXB). Looks like they use ADS.
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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life »

At least that way crews would see the little diamond in the TCAS and think "hey maybe if I'm not getting an answer it isn't because no one is around.
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av8ts
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by av8ts »

Maybe it's because they are on coffee break and left the trucks running
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mbav8r
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by mbav8r »

Maybe all air carriers need to stop operating into airports without at the very least a FSS on duty! If they stop, it will force the hand of the airport to have proper staffing especially if snow clearing is in effect.
Crazyaviator has no clue apparently, even if the weather were conducive to a fly over unless you stay visual how do you guarantee that nothing has entered the runway for your next approach. A low flyover at 200' is not safe either and I guarantee TC would not approve such a maneuver, the only way is as mentioned earlier, if the airport doesn't have air to ground communications, you are restricted to circling minima.
"The use of straight-in landing minima is predicated upon the pilot having the wind direction and speed and runway condition reports required to conduct a safe landing. At an uncontrolled aerodrome where the pilot may lack the necessary information, the pilot is expected to verify that the runway is unobstructed prior to landing. In some cases, this can only be accomplished by conducting a circling approach using the appropriate circling minima.
At an uncontrolled aerodrome, runway conditions (including any temporary obstructions such as vehicles) may be determined by the pilot by:

(a) contacting the appropriate FSS or UNICOM at the destination;

(b) a pre-flight telephone call to the destination to arrange for making the necessary information available when required for landing;

(c) a visual inspection;

(d) a NOTAM issued by the aerodrome operator; or

(e) any other means available to the pilot, such as message relay from preceding aircraft at the destination."
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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life »

av8ts wrote:Maybe it's because they are on coffee break and left the trucks running

Transponders can be turned off and on it would obviously be procedure to only have them on when working on the runway
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rxl
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl »

Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
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fish4life
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by fish4life »

TCAS alerts should be inhibited when you are that close to the ground if not it is a system issue.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by AuxBatOn »

rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Mayor_McCheese »

AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...

Agreed. RWSL is primarily based on ASDE information, which is not in place at YAM and the majority of airports across the country.
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rxl
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl »

RA's are inhibited but TA's should still work.
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by rxl »

AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
Like I said ... all it takes is money.
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MUSKEG
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by MUSKEG »

I think it would be easy to have the radios on these vehicle set up to broadcast on the MF any time they are on the runway or within 100 feet of it. A simple " vehicle on runway" broadcast every 30 seconds might solve the problem. Once vehicle was clear another message indicating so.
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Mayor_McCheese
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Mayor_McCheese »

rxl wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:
rxl wrote:Mode C or Mode S transponders on the snow plows would generate a traffic alert in TCAS II equipped aircraft.
An RWSL (runway status lights) system like the major US airports have would also help to reduce the risk of this kind of incident.
All it takes is money.
The infrastructure will not be in place anytime soon to make that possible at small airports like YAM. Risk vs reward type of deal again...
Like I said ... all it takes is money.
Sure, with unlimited $$$ almost anything is possible. But there's no chance of anyone investing that kind of money in the size of airports we're talking about here.
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Re: Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

Post by Canoehead »

The lesson learned at the expense of this crew's close call is to be diligent in the correct operation of the radios. Ultimately Comm#1 should have been the primary radio used for ATC/MF/ATF comms. Yes the mandatory "warning" calls might be made on #2, but when YYZ Center says "cleared enroute freq" or "switch to mandatory" or whatever verbiage they're using, then that frequency should be used now on Comm#1. You know #1 works; you were just using it. #2 is pressed into action at a critical time, and realistically it may not have been used since who knows when. With ACARS it's possible to go through the better part of a day without using it. Maybe longer. I'm not throwing stones here; truly a lesson learned.

FWIW, I know the CA, and he's truly top shelf. Certainly is not an "Idiot" as implied by crazyaviator.
If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.
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