Jazz lands YAM with plows on runway

[URC]

Aviation Incident Report#14635: A Jazz de Havilland DHC-8 (JZA8319) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Sault Ste. Marie, ON (CYAM) landed on runway 30 without declaring his/her intention over the mandatory frequency to land. The Sault Ste. Marie Airport Development Corporation had runway snow removal maintenance vehicles carrying out snow removal on runway 12/30 while the aircraft landed. Blower 142 was blowing windrows off the runway approximately 30 feet inside runway edge, while Truck/Sweeper 88 was doing a turn on the threshold of runway 12 at the same time.

Audio on LiveATC ...

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviati ... -vehicles/

[crazyaviator]

The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.

[teacher]

The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.

I've gone in a bunch of times and if no one is monitoring no one will answer. It is actually possible that the #2 radio was faulty. It sounds like the Jazz pilot is keeping his cool trying to figure out what happened rather than getting excited.

[crazyaviator]

Finger trouble or U/S comm 2 either way, it was a SNOWSTORM with low clouds and poor visibility and ALL the Aircraft inbound knew there were snow clearing ops going on !!
Remember there were 2 PILOTS on board and min 2 comms AND how many innocent passengers?

[CpnCrunch]

The idiot in the cockpit tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO The guy on the ground is the hero for taking the stripes off the pilot for not receiving clearance to land/confirming runway clear.

The idiot on avcanada didn't bother reading the report, which clearly says the radio wasn't transmitting or receiving properly

So, how do you actually know whether your radio isn't working, unless you do a radio check every time you transmit?

The only rule they might have broken is 705.47(2), unless they got an ATIS on the other radio.

[crazyaviator]

705.47 (1) No person shall conduct a CAT II or CAT III precision approach unless

(a) the air operator is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate; and

(b) the approach is conducted in accordance with the Manual of All Weather Operations (Categories II and III).

(2) No person shall terminate an instrument approach with a landing unless, immediately prior to landing, the pilot-in-command ascertains, by means of radiocommunication or visual inspection,

(a) the condition of the runway or surface of intended landing; and

(b) the wind direction and speed.

This may not affect them but what may is the fact that they had known about runway clearing in progress and also indicated they had troubles talking to sunwing on that radio,,,,,,, They OBVIOUSLY could not see well enough to see not 1 but 2 SNOW CLEARING vehicles on the runway. Would it not have been prudent to call centre or switch radios or do a missed and visually inspect the runway whole length ?

The idiot on avcanada didn't bother reading the report, which clearly says the radio wasn't transmitting or receiving properly

Finger trouble or U/S comm 2 either way,

tried to downplay it by blaming the RADIO

Who is the idiot? there are 2 passages above I wrote about the U/S #2 comm

[CpnCrunch]

Who is the idiot? there are 2 passages above I wrote about the U/S #2 comm

If you re-read my comment you'll see it was a joke. Poking fun at you calling the Jazz pilot an idiot.

[crazyaviator]

No Worries !

The vis was 1/4 mile and 200 miles VV ( 200 feet) RVR 2400 variable to 6000 feet? Based upon the weather reports the pilots would not likely have seen the total runway length,,,, therefore the only other option is through radio communications to ascertain that the runway was clear of vehicles/ snow drifts etc. How many pilots would have done a missed and how many would try another radio? 1 in 10 ? 1 in 2 ?

[crazyaviator]

IF Jazz hit the plow and 20-50 people died what do YOU think the TSB findings would be ? what would be a logical recommendation(s) ? I for one would suggest that during ALL snow clearing ops, radio communication SHALL be established with the appropriate ground facility, landing clearance be given AND OR a missed approach be commenced when the RVR/ weather indicate that the pilots do not have any certainty of seeing the whole runway length. BUT, alas, we will have to wait for a good number of deaths until safer procedures are established at outlying / limited staffed airports. ( remember Dryden and icing? )

[AuxBatOn]

How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?

[crazyaviator]

How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?

Exactly !

How long and how many deaths before we get staffing and rules to reflect this impending accident ?

[teacher]

When the tower is closed the ATIS says "Sault tower is closed......"

You call the MF and get no answer on comm 2. Comm 1 is on Toronto centre and comm 2 is used to call the MF and give an eta to traffic. You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.

No answer doesn't necessarily mean comm failure. I've been to the Sault for years and no answer means nobody listening/there. Even in IMC conditions.

[crazyaviator]

Those who think out of the box/ are proactive and make rules for the betterment of safety are considered revolutionaries. Those who make rules and demand changes after the smoking black hole are called reactionaries

Crazyaviator

[crazyaviator]

You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.

AND THAT is where the positive bias and reinforcement that there is no need to get ANY reply OR no need to do a missed/ low and over to inspect runway UNTIL the big smoking black hole fixes this present problem!

[teacher]

You get no answer response. My first thought would be the runway has been cleared and the plow drivers are inside and getting warm/drinking coffee.

AND THAT is where the positive bias and reinforcement that there is no need to get ANY reply OR no need to do a missed/ low and over to inspect runway UNTIL the big smoking black hole fixes this present problem!

Not saying I am right. Just saying what may have happened. Usually I use comm 1 as primary communication and when switching to the MF go back to comm 1. These guys clearly stayed on 2 on the hand off from centre which I have done on occasion. Something to learn for all after this near accident.

[av8ts]

I do the same Teacher. Comm 1 is the primary radio. I just talked to atc on it so good chance it works. When radio is closed and no ne else on freq your just doing transmissions in the blind so really you can't be sure. And when weather is at mins you cannot see if entire runway is clear. This is the way the system works at many small airports and not changing any time soon

[AuxBatOn]

How do you get a landing clearance at non-towered airports?

Exactly !

How long and how many deaths before we get staffing and rules to reflect this impending accident ?

How would that work at places where there is no radio? What about off-strip landings?

The current rules are fine.

CARS 602.96 (2)

Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that

(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle; and

(b) the aerodrome is suitable for the intended operation.

[crazyaviator]

Back on Feb 11 1978 a PWA 737 took off from Calgary for a 23 min flight to Cranbrook. At the time there was NO requirement to contact aeradio inbound after being cleared for the approach to the uncontrolled airport. Vis was 3/4 mile in snow. It was normal practice to call Skookum inbound ( but NOT mandatory) and give an ETA. Aeradio notified PWA that there was a snow sweeper ON the runway ! PWA arrived NOT at the estimate given to aeradio. 737 did a go-around after touchdown to miss the sweeper, unfortunately, the thrust reverser deployed and did them in . 42 dead 5 injured.

Aeradio: And three one four. The-er-sweeper on the runway-er has
been for some time trying to keep the snow back for
you. I'll let you know what it's like as soon as I get
a progress from him. And the visibility - not much
change in the weather - maybe visibility about three
quarters of a mile in snow.

Pilot: Three fourteen checks.

P Where the hell did he come from?

P We're gonna crash -

What have we learned since 1978? 1) Establishing contact was not mandatory 2) No need to ascertain runway was clear , ( the aeradio would have taken care of that ), a mindset by the pilots ? 3) there was NO control of the situation, Aeradio was advisory and his transmission may have been vague or missed by the pilot.

In BOTH instances, Neither pilot established that the runway was clear 2) Proper communication was either not received or acted upon 3) At an uncontrolled/ remote comm airport with tower off duty,,,,,,, regulations and procedures did NOT provide CONTROL of the aircraft and/or separation of aircraft and vehicles on the runway

MAYBE we did not learn anything ? Maybe we need 100 charred and dismembered bodies this time?

When will the powers that be decide that when we have an international airport , having scheduled and charter commercial traffic who are on the ATC system, must have a completion of the flight with the same standards of control, safety and oversight .

And the answer is: $$$$$$$$$$$$ / Death ratio

[AuxBatOn]

This is called risk management. The severity of an occurence (in this case, fatal so extreme severity) vs the likelyhood of an occurence (in this case, very unlikely). This is not something that happens often, there isn't much traffic at those airports and the risk is mitigated by pilot training and radio communication. While it is entirely possible for a chain of events to unravel that will end up in a fatal accident, the low risk of an occurence combined with the mitigation doesn't require anymore action. This is not the type of occurence we hear about very often.

If you were to absolutely remove all risk from aviation, we would not fly or even taxi an aircraft. There is an inherent risk to flying and to flying in bad weather. All you can do to have safe, operationally sound air traffic is manage risk.

[crazyaviator]

In the SOO, It sounds like ( on ATC audio ) the Airport snow removers were providing airport info/ runway suggestions and separation , based upon estimates and inbound calls !!!! EDITED