AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

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pelmet
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AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by pelmet » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:43 am

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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Boreas » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:08 am

I don't have any inside details on what happened here, but while on topic, the GTAA needs to get it together and groove some of those runways.

If you're gonna pretend you're a world-class airport...
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by We_tu_lo » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:25 am

Hmm, sounds suspiciously familiar. As far as I know, no changes were put into effect after the "Hard landing" at YHZ.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by crazyaviator » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:41 am

He said that after about an hour and a half, the passengers disembarked and were taken in buses back to the terminal.
Canada's biggest airport and this is how long it took for the collective intelligence to determine it was safe to exit the aircraft ?
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Rockie » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:37 am

We_tu_lo wrote:Hmm, sounds suspiciously familiar. As far as I know, no changes were put into effect after the "Hard landing" at YHZ.
One has nothing to do with the other, and you have no knowledge to comment on any changes that may or may not have been put into affect.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:42 am

AC 623 - YYZ
AC 624 -YHZ
AC 620 - YYZ DC-8 :shock:

Bad juju with that flight number.

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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by aerodude » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:51 am

Sky clear and crosswind, use the 06's and 05.

Light winds and low vis, land aircraft on the shortest wet runway with no centerline lighting: 15R....

Got to love CYYZ. Never surprised.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by altiplano » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:02 pm

Right!

Poor, poor job being done there...

Crew probably didn't find out the runway until 3/4 way down the STAR too...
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by YYZSaabGuy » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:00 pm

crazyaviator wrote:
He said that after about an hour and a half, the passengers disembarked and were taken in buses back to the terminal.
Canada's biggest airport and this is how long it took for the collective intelligence to determine it was safe to exit the aircraft ?
Less a safety issue than that most operators, including the GTAA, don't keep a fleet of buses and drivers on stand-by to respond to occasional post-midnight runway excursions. It takes a bit of time to get the logistics organized.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Bede » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm

Boreas wrote:I don't have any inside details on what happened here, but while on topic, the GTAA needs to get it together and groove some of those runways.

If you're gonna pretend you're a world-class airport...
You can't groove runways in such cold climates because of ice expansion in the grooves during the winter.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by av8ts » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:28 pm

Ottawa has grooved runway
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Dick » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Most pilots don't need a runway to be grooved to stay on it.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Maynard » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:39 pm

Bede wrote:
Boreas wrote:I don't have any inside details on what happened here, but while on topic, the GTAA needs to get it together and groove some of those runways.

If you're gonna pretend you're a world-class airport...
You can't groove runways in such cold climates because of ice expansion in the grooves during the winter.
31 in Ywg is grooved. Pretty cold there
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Rockie » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:44 pm

Dick wrote:Most pilots don't need a runway to be grooved to stay on it.
Why don't you save the witty criticism until it's actually known what happened?
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:20 pm

Could a failure of the tires have caused it?
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Rockie » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:55 pm

Possibly, pure conjecture though. Wait for the report.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by GyvAir » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:40 pm

Looks like one flat, but all present:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5fgiiQUwAE3sZW.jpg

(Sorry.. not sure how to embed this pic)
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by pelmet » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:47 pm

From another forum....wouldn't using low vis runways make more sense?

"AC623 arrived just after midnight EST (0500Z):

Cyyz 250600z 14002kt 3sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2950 rmk ns8 slp997
Cyyz 250542z 08010kt 2sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2949 rmk ns8 presfr slp992
Cyyz 250528z 06009kt 3/4sm r15l/p6000ft/u r06l/p6000ft/d r05/6000ft/d r15r/p6000ft/u -shra br vv002 03/03 a2951 rmk fg8 presfr slp998
Cyyz 250515z vrb07kt 3/4sm r15l/2600vp6000ft/u r24r/3000v6000ft/u r15r/3000vp6000ft/u -tsra br vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic

Cyyz 250500z vrb02kt 3/8sm r15l/2800ft/n r24r/3000ft/d r15r/3500ft/u -tsra fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presfr slp018

Cyyz 250450z 22005kt 170v230 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3500v5000ft/u r15r/3500ft/u -tsra vv001 03/03 a2959 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presrr slp028
Cyyz 250429z vrb03kt 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3000ft/n r15r/3000ft/d fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 presfr slp017
Cyyz 250400z 12006kt 1/2sm r15l/4500vp6000ft/n r24r/4000v5500ft/d r15r/3000v5500ft/d fg vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250313z 11007kt 1/4sm r15l/2800vp6000ft/d r24r/2600ft/n r15r/3500v4500ft/n fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250300z 11007kt 1/2sm r15l/3500vp6000ft/u r24r/3500ft/d r15r/5000ft/d fg vv0 "
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by pelmet » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:55 pm

ATC recording. Start from the beginning.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyyz/ ... -0500Z.mp3
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by complexintentions » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:31 pm

pelmet wrote:From another forum....wouldn't using low vis runways make more sense?

"AC623 arrived just after midnight EST (0500Z):

Cyyz 250600z 14002kt 3sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2950 rmk ns8 slp997
Cyyz 250542z 08010kt 2sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2949 rmk ns8 presfr slp992
Cyyz 250528z 06009kt 3/4sm r15l/p6000ft/u r06l/p6000ft/d r05/6000ft/d r15r/p6000ft/u -shra br vv002 03/03 a2951 rmk fg8 presfr slp998
Cyyz 250515z vrb07kt 3/4sm r15l/2600vp6000ft/u r24r/3000v6000ft/u r15r/3000vp6000ft/u -tsra br vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic

Cyyz 250500z vrb02kt 3/8sm r15l/2800ft/n r24r/3000ft/d r15r/3500ft/u -tsra fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presfr slp018

Cyyz 250450z 22005kt 170v230 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3500v5000ft/u r15r/3500ft/u -tsra vv001 03/03 a2959 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presrr slp028
Cyyz 250429z vrb03kt 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3000ft/n r15r/3000ft/d fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 presfr slp017
Cyyz 250400z 12006kt 1/2sm r15l/4500vp6000ft/n r24r/4000v5500ft/d r15r/3000v5500ft/d fg vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250313z 11007kt 1/4sm r15l/2800vp6000ft/d r24r/2600ft/n r15r/3500v4500ft/n fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250300z 11007kt 1/2sm r15l/3500vp6000ft/u r24r/3500ft/d r15r/5000ft/d fg vv0 "

VV001.

Not like it was sudden. At 0300Z, VV0.

My Jepps show 15R is Cat 1 only.

??

There are certain annoying aspects of European airport operations, but one thing I do like is they go into LVO ops long before the weather is this bad.

This will annoy our resident speculation-police, but perhaps they were attempting to autoland on an unprotected signal and then the localizer took them for a ride? À la Singapore in MUC (2011).

Do those old 320's even have centreline guidance after landing?

C'mon Rockie. Your company, your fleet, your type. It's foolish to think there will be no wondering what happened, might as well make the conversation intelligent. I got asked a lot about EK521 and I didn't even work there anymore. I didn't mind.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by cossack » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:05 pm

More YYZ bashing for no good reason.

Was there any reason to evacuate the aircraft? Apparently not.
No buses at YYZ after midnight? Shocking. Lets have 3 guys sitting in their buses just in case from now on.
aerodude wrote:Sky clear and crosswind, use the 06's and 05.

Light winds and low vis, land aircraft on the shortest wet runway with no centerline lighting: 15R....

Got to love CYYZ. Never surprised.
Your first line describes the usual operation where we are capacity constrained and using the E-W runways with a high crosswind to maintain the capacity that your airlines demand. We'd happily go to the 33s or 15s and you can sit on the ground elsewhere for a couple of hours.

I wasn't working but it takes something out of the ordinary to put YYZ onto the 15s. Where were the TS cells? Maybe that was the driving factor here. 15R is the shortest runway but its not that short. It was reduced vis not low vis. Big difference.
altiplano wrote:Right!

Poor, poor job being done there...

Crew probably didn't find out the runway until 3/4 way down the STAR too...
And you know that because... Where were you at the time?
complexintentions wrote:Not like it was sudden. At 0300Z, VV0.

My Jepps show 15R is Cat 1 only.

There are certain annoying aspects of European airport operations, but one thing I do like is they go into LVO ops long before the weather is this bad.
Weather was within limits for that runway. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have landed on it. Why they didn't stay on it is a separate matter.
We don't go into LVO before the weather dictates it. There is RVO first and all runways in YYZ are available for RVO. If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.

If the tire caused the excursion it wouldn't matter which runway they landed on.

Get a grip.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Bede » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:42 pm

av8ts wrote:Ottawa has grooved runway
I was thinking more of MIA-type of grooves. The one's that actually work.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by complexintentions » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:18 am

If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.
Yeeeahhh I call bullshit on this one. Going into LVO with VV100 isn't exactly radical. I've never heard about airlines going into LHR/FRA/AMS complaining about having to hold because of LVO ops with wx as reported during the incident flight.

Why not just admit that even with the highest landing fees in the world the airport doesn't even have centreline lighting or approaches above Cat 1 on most runways? Not saying that it contributed to AC's offroading adventure but come on. It's 2017. The aircraft are equipped, time for Canada to join the modern age.

Rockie, does this mean you're not going to bid the 624/623 pairing anymore? :lol:

Seriously though, I don't agree with your objection to speculation, as long as it's expressed as such and not fact. I know it's hard to tell sometimes, but there actually is a fair bit of intelligence on this forum mixed into the nonsense, and healthy theorizing at least gets people thinking about threats and possible ways to counter them. I only tease because the incident seems fairly benign as they go, there'd be no joking around if it was something more serious.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by Ancient » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:21 am

For the last 5 years we've been seeing reports from watchdogs saying automation is dulling airline pilots skills. Perhaps we are now seeing that come to roost. That Montego Bay report was shocking to read. Can't say I've read the YHZ report yet. We have been very very lucky that no one has been killed in these near disasters. I hope it won't take fatalities for there to be a change in the industry if there is a trend developing. I don't think airplanes landing short, or wide, or hard is benign.
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Re: AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

Post by complexintentions » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:26 am

They didn't land wide, short, long, or hard. They landed, and then were not able to stay on the runway. Why? Don't know yet. But given the apparently minimal damage and total lack of injuries and fatalities, yeah I'd say it's pretty benign as incidents go.

Don't cherry-pick my words, please.
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