WestJet almost puts one in the drink

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digits_
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by digits_ »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:56 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:23 pm You can easily check that yourself.
So, you're suggesting that this is soooo obvious that it is common sense and doesn't need to be written down anywhere?

There are quite a few (thousand) books on flight crew illusions, I just can't remember this in any of them. But, I fully admit, I might have missed it.
I wrote out the whole procedure how you can check it out yourself. Any pilot should be able to follow it. So yes, easy to verify if it is accurate.

I never said it was obvious. It is one of those things that usually don't matter.

If you disagree, let me know at which step it fails or where the error is.
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Eric Janson
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

@digits_

Semantics maybe - but in reduced visibility you have marginal to no depth perception. You cannot accurately determine height and distance. This is why PAPI/Approach Lights/DME was invented.

@Cliff Jumper

Optical illusions discussed here - shortened horizon distance is mentioned.

https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf

The ALAR toolkit is worth downloading as it has a great deal of useful information
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Cliff Jumper
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Bit Eric, that reference gives the exact opposite of what you are saying. It says that in haze, you could interpret being too low, and pull up.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

Page 4 - Flight Path Monitoring.
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Cliff Jumper
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Still can't find the part where it says 'reduced visibility causes the illusion of increased pitch'.

But, granted, I don't read good.
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Eric Janson
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

Final report released.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 7f0052.pdf

Lowest recorded altitude 39 feet! :shock: :shock:

Someone should send Lauren Stewart a copy of the report.
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98 Corolla
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by 98 Corolla »

39 feet from what point on the aircraft?
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Heliian
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Heliian »

98 Corolla wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:29 pm 39 feet from what point on the aircraft?
Wherever the source for the egpws comes from. I would guess a rad alt on the bottom of the fuselage.

That was an overly detailed report, they really pushed the paper well. No FDR data to go on either.
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J31
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by J31 »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:13 pm Final report released.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 7f0052.pdf

Lowest recorded altitude 39 feet! :shock: :shock:

Someone should send Lauren Stewart a copy of the report.
That is the report that was released on June 4 2018 and Donald posted it that day. Eric we already hashed it out! :wink:
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:13 pm
Lowest recorded altitude 39 feet! :shock: :shock:
Big deal. AC wins that contest.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

J31 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:04 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:13 pm Final report released.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 7f0052.pdf

Lowest recorded altitude 39 feet! :shock: :shock:

Someone should send Lauren Stewart a copy of the report.
That is the report that was released on June 4 2018 and Donald posted it that day. Eric we already hashed it out! :wink:
Ok thanks - I missed that.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Zaibatsu »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:24 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:13 pm
Lowest recorded altitude 39 feet! :shock: :shock:
Big deal. AC wins that contest.
At night

Still on the vertical profile

On an offset lateral profile where lights were misleading

Nobody got a picture of that
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C.W.E.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by C.W.E. »

On an offset lateral profile where lights were misleading
I can understand that part of the problem the crew had in SFO because there are not many runways with airplanes on it pointed towards you with all those bright lights blinding you.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

That brings up an interesting topic; the use of the taxi-light while holding short?

I always have it on anytime I’m away from the apron, provided it isn’t pointed directly AT another aircraft. Even when not in motion, I’ll generally leave it on unless giving way to another aircraft.

They’re usually aimed low enough that it won’t “blind” anyone else. What’s everyone else’s opinion on this? Looks like in the AC incident it helped a bit.
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J31
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by J31 »

A lot of airline SOP's have the taxi light on when ever moving under power day and night.
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