WestJet almost puts one in the drink

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Old fella
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Old fella » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:40 am

Whatever..... the crew realized the situation probably wasn't stable and did a go around to a successful approach and landing. Isn't that what they are trained to do with WJ established company SOPs and they(crew) did just that. This crew did their jobs IMHO. Nuff Said.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by GyvAir » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:48 am

If quoted correctly in the article, the ones that didn't do their jobs well are the Westjet spokesperson and the people providing her with her information.
“According to the information I have been given there was nothing unusual about the first approach,” said Lauren Stewart, a spokeswoman for the Calgary-based carrier. Citing FlightAware logs, Stewart said the plane was never lower than 500 feet before the go-around.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Qdrivermann » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:59 am

Well at least WJ didn't get all wet!!
There is something to be learned from each occurence, incident and accident. Shit happens and we should all be happy that they didn't land short - their training and high standards came together and a go-around was executed and a normal landing resulted. I just hope a transparent report will be published so we can all learn from this. What disturbs me the most is the initial reluctance of certain individuals to admit or accept that Team Teal had a close call... Team Teal are not immune to error nor should they be shielded from public scrutiny. We all screw up at some point and regardless of what company we work for we are all on the same team at the end of the day. Hell, most of us probably know at least one of the pilots on this flight... thank goodness nothing worse happened. Good job to the two drivers for recognizing in time their predicament and going-around for another approach. To those who feel the need to continually shield WJ's screwups and negative press that end up in the public eye - you actually do our profession a disfavor, and tarnish the safety culture of the organization. In this particular instance we can clearly see that the safety culture at WJ is intact, well established and functioning.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by FishermanIvan » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:04 pm

There's an RNAV into 10 there.... So low vis isn't really an excuse.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by shamrock104 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:09 pm

Why 45 minutes on the go around?
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Bacunayagua
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Bacunayagua » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:15 pm

Gotta love pilots.....

Asiana 777 - "Why in the world didn't these pilots go around when they got too low, incompetence at its best"

Westjet 737- "These guys got too low and went around? Must have been monkeys in that cockpit"
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Ancient » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:22 pm

Uh nobody is questioning why they did a go around. Why were they that low is the issue.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:25 pm

@ Old Fella...

When they decided to "Go Around" they were already too low and too far back from the runway to be at that altitude/position which means they were below minimums and in an unstable approach. They were certainly not doing a CDA approach. Furthermore it seems from what is now coming out that the weather prior and during their approach was bad, possibly lower than the minimums and that perhaps they were "pushing it" with the results we now have come to see on pictures and the videos... Maybe they were lucky and turned a bad situation into a good one with a positive outcome.

Trevor from the comment section in Christine N.'s blog adds this:

Trevor says:

"March 11, 2017 at 6:42 am

Let me clear up a few things – I was in SXM listening to ATC all afternoon. American Flight 2219, a Boeing 737 from Miami had just landed before Westjet and reported to the Tower that they only picked up the field at the last minute (I presume that meant before they decided to go around). The Westjet approach was next and lets be clear, ATC did not advise them to go around, it was the pilots decision. ATC did comment that the decision to go around was very late – Westjet did not respond – ATC advised them to climb to 4000 feet and hold at Ivaci – the airport was then closed to arrivals and departures. About 20 minutes into the hold, Westjet was informed that the visibility on approach had improved from 11/2 miles to 2 miles and asked if he wanted the approach. He declined, indicated he had plenty of fuel to hold and would wait for further improvement. KLM Flight 729 then arrived, an Airbus A330 and was told to enter the hold. He indicated he did not have sufficient fuel to hold and wanted to try the approach – ATC complied with his wish and he landed safely – he reported that he picked up the field at 3 miles. Westjet then decided to make the second approach and it was flawless. As an aside, Insel Air was also in the hold, a Dominican Wings A320, and he decided to divert to Guadeloupe."
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Last edited by Jet Jockey on Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:27 pm

@ Ancient...

Exactly!
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Bacunayagua » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:28 pm

I agree, lets hang them! We all know pilots shouldn't make mistakes. When they do, even if they properly correct for them, to the hangman I say!
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:37 pm

@ FishermanIvan...

"There's an RNAV into 10 there.... So low vis isn't really an excuse."

No so fast...

The LNAV approach on RWY 10 calls for a MDA of 700' with a VIS of 3200M (2.0 miles) or a MDA of 770' with a VIS of 3600M (2.2 miles) for a category C aircraft depending on the equipment being used in the aircraft. So if the visibility was indeed 1.5 to 2.0 miles as some are reporting while they were on the approach then I leave it up to you to come up with your own conclusion.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by altiplano » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:42 pm

Re:45 minutes
- one runway, backtracking required often, mix of overseas heavies often have to take off against the active due second segment climb limits into terrain, plus light aircraft... Islanders, Twin Offers etc...

I wonder how much gas they made it back with?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:47 pm

@ Bacunayagua...

"I agree, lets hang them! We all know pilots shouldn't make mistakes. When they do, even if they properly correct for them, to the hangman I say!"

You can't be serious.

Because they "managed" to save the day, doesn't mean they did not do something wrong at the onset of the approach.

I do not want to "hang" anyone but let us be clear that at a minimum there should an investigation whether internally or/and one in which TC is involved.

If the crew did not follow the company COM or SOP and if they pushed the limits then yes they should be reprimanded but if everything was above board then no problem. It should be easy to pull the data from that flight to get the answers.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Ancient » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:48 pm

Jet Jockey wrote:ATC did comment that the decision to go around was very late – Westjet did not respond
Heh, I like to hear the exact wording of that conversation. Sounds like a couple of good ol' boys from the North trying to get 'er done.

But it was a little windy. Maybe they got into some descending air. The island is pretty hilly isn't it?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Old fella » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:39 pm

Jet Jockey wrote:@ Old Fella...

When they decided to "Go Around" they were already too low and too far back from the runway to be at that altitude/position which means they were below minimums and in an unstable approach. They were certainly not doing a CDA approach. Furthermore it seems from what is now coming out that the weather prior and during their approach was bad, possibly lower than the minimums and that perhaps they were "pushing it" with the results we now have come to see on pictures and the videos... Maybe they were lucky and turned a bad situation into a good one with a positive outcome.

Trevor from the comment section in Christine N.'s blog adds this:

Trevor says:

"March 11, 2017 at 6:42 am

Let me clear up a few things – I was in SXM listening to ATC all afternoon. American Flight 2219, a Boeing 737 from Miami had just landed before Westjet and reported to the Tower that they only picked up the field at the last minute (I presume that meant before they decided to go around). The Westjet approach was next and lets be clear, ATC did not advise them to go around, it was the pilots decision. ATC did comment that the decision to go around was very late – Westjet did not respond – ATC advised them to climb to 4000 feet and hold at Ivaci – the airport was then closed to arrivals and departures. About 20 minutes into the hold, Westjet was informed that the visibility on approach had improved from 11/2 miles to 2 miles and asked if he wanted the approach. He declined, indicated he had plenty of fuel to hold and would wait for further improvement. KLM Flight 729 then arrived, an Airbus A330 and was told to enter the hold. He indicated he did not have sufficient fuel to hold and wanted to try the approach – ATC complied with his wish and he landed safely – he reported that he picked up the field at 3 miles. Westjet then decided to make the second approach and it was flawless. As an aside, Insel Air was also in the hold, a Dominican Wings A320, and he decided to divert to Guadeloupe."
I am not an airline pilot, never was, not now and certainly never will be and not qualified on their aircraft types so not in a position to make any commentary on what this crew did/ didn't do to get to a point a go around was necessary on this particular approach which was completed to a successful second attempt and an uneventful landing.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:04 pm

The second approach was normal.

However, if they really were within around fifty feet of the water on the first approach why did they get that close?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by flyer 1492 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:27 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The second approach was normal.

However, if they really were within around fifty feet of the water on the first approach why did they get that close?

That Cat is the 64,000 question.

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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by BTD » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:14 pm

flyer 1492 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:The second approach was normal.

However, if they really were within around fifty feet of the water on the first approach why did they get that close?

That Cat is the 64,000 question.

Flyer
64000 what. We need units.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by '97 Tercel » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:01 pm

:lol:
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by BBQ Chips » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:55 am

Long Story short these guys fucked it up, realized it and put the airplane back into the proper flight path. It wasn't pretty, it is not where anybody wants to be, but bottom line they didn't try to salvage it, they went around and did it properly. Unfortunately for them there are countless lenses catching every frame.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by phillyfan » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:42 am

What's the over/under on pilot nerds doing this approach on their Microsoft Flt Sim? Is it any wonder pilots are usually single?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by HansDietrich » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:59 am

Well, I'm going to give my two cents here as well.

1. There was a mistake. (The plane was low... There's not denial about that)
2. The pilots corrected it by doing a Go-Around

Like others said: "Nobody wants to hang the pilots". We all make mistakes. Shit, the other day in SIM I wasn't very careful and pulled the wrong T-Handle on a V1 Cut. Had this been a real flight, it may not have ended up very pretty (See "Taiwan ATR"). And that's why we TRAIN in simulators.

The whole point of this discussion is to makes sure we find out what happened and we can all learn from it. I hope those two pilots are back at work ASAP and I would have no problem putting my family on their aircraft. WestJet hires top notch pilots. I have many many many friends that work there.

The only troubling thing here is (IF) Westjet does not like to admit mistakes. The spokeswoman's comments were not very professional. It should've said "We're looking into it, so we can't comment on anything until we have ALL the facts."
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by B208 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:05 am

I wonder if this is similar to that Air Canada crash a few years ago out east, (Halifax I think), where the crew started down on the 3 degree GP a few miles too early.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by BTD » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:57 am

B208 wrote:I wonder if this is similar to that Air Canada crash a few years ago out east, (Halifax I think), where the crew started down on the 3 degree GP a few miles too early.
Source?

There is no report yet that I can find. Did I miss it?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Commonwealth » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:53 am

The original YouTube video is now restricted. So much for open and transparent.
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