Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

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fish4life
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#126 Post by fish4life » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Because legally any aircraft has to be de-iced so it shouldn't matter.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#127 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:42 pm

Sort of makes you wonder why it was chosen as a cargo hauler in Northern Canada where proper deicing facilities, and hangars are few and far between.
It was chosen because the DC3 is such a good all around airplane and with turbines even better.

Deicing can be done anywhere but it is a bit more difficult doing it without proper deicing equipment.

We solved the problem by putting water proof wing and tail plane covers on them over night.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#128 Post by Jimmy2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:50 pm

What did you do for residual ice you picked en route?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#129 Post by valleyboy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:10 am

I'm going to relay my own experience with DC-3's and wing contamination -- never had an issue except for ice beading on the underside of the trailing edge of an aileron along almost the whole length. It acted like a trim tab and it was 2 hands and full trim to control the aircraft, other than that and somewhere around 7000 hrs in both piston and turbine dc3 I will say it will carry and take off with frost(roped if a lot),freezing precip, light snow and any reasonable amount of rime ice with very little effect. Things that will get you though is wet snow and slush and close to freezing temperatures(possibly considered common sense). There has always been an air reg not to fly with contaminated wings and control surfaces but since Dryden for some reason they like to make people think it was a revelation. It wasn't. It was just the start of the major "dumbing down" of aviation. In the minds of many they believe that most pilots lack common sense and need rules for everything. I hope it's helping but if I hear one more "it's legal" when obviously it's not safe I will possibly go postal. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#130 Post by NWONT » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:33 am

Well said Vallyboy. I was going to refrain from commenting just to avoid the curled lip of the new guys, but,....I flew with a crusty old guy who knew the DC-3 very well. We worked without a hanger or any form of de-icing equipment except a rope and a broom. Flying with frost and ice was common place and usual. A few adjustments were made to critical speeds and pole handling techniques and the freight got moved. Now, children, don't attack your keyboard in disgust and indignation. I'm not interested in hearing it.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#131 Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:59 am

Some wings carry ice better than others. DeHavilland wings (Beaver, Otter) will carry a lot more ice than a Caravan before it becomes a problem.

Then there's the old "PR spray", done simply for show.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#132 Post by anofly » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:30 am

Well so now we have a few very experienced types that have indicated they got a "pretty good scare" flying with as little as the pattern the covers left on the wings, and a few folks saying that the Racer can fly with a quick sweep or rope trick.The issue now is that unless you have had the scare, and have come to the "wont do that again" realization, you apparently dont know it all. Young fellas ,flying a DC 3, should listen carefully to everything the experienced capts tell them.I think a few mins(hours?) sweeping is often in order.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#133 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:56 am

I have a question.

If the top surface of a wing is contaminated by anything that causes the airflow to be disturbed enough to change the smooth flow to a burbled flow, what happens to the lift factor?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#134 Post by valleyboy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:12 am

I guess in an ideal world a clean wing is what everyone wants. The only choice I see when you are in the bumm f no where is to get creative, do what you can and know your aeroplane. The only way I see, if one wants everything pristine a 100% of the time, is to shut remote flying down all together. Can't do that trip to the ice because there is no support equipment and BTW we can't de-ice because it's against the law Environment says, how do we interpret the rules when it says snow is non-adhering. I have a sop be saying I can take off in those conditions yet we are taught the clean wing concept. Is it black or is it white -- revelation -- it's actually grey. What a surprise. Absolutely for the young guys to learn from their captains but unless you are prepared to actually make some decisions and do your own risk analysis my advise is to stay out of remote aviation and wait until a major or regional will hire you, problem solved, you are not required to think for yourself. :twisted:
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#135 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:35 pm

Yes, it is a grey area and common sense mixed with the experience to know what you are dealing with is the ideal answer.

Such as it snowed over night and it is forty below zero , will that snow blow off?

I flew for Austin Airways for a few thousand hours and we had a scheduled route from Timmins up to Cape Dorset in the Arctic Islands.

We used the DC3 and I do not recall any of our airplanes ever crashing due to wing contamination.1

However if you make the wrong decision and you end up crashing and they determine you took off with contaminated wings you are truly screwed and if someone is killed or injured you are really truly screwed.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#136 Post by JL » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:47 pm

A brief answer to Cat's question. CL is reduced and Cd is increased; a double whammy.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#137 Post by valleyboy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:20 am

Strange place to be having the same old discussion but a little thread drift is OK -- Ironically I have never in all my years of flying experienced control issues with an aircraft with what most consider contaminated wings or critical control services. Freezing precip, snow, and frost have never been an issue for me(personal experience). I clean the wing or at least inspect the wing and make my decision and it has worked for many years. My encounters have been from subtle contamination. The contamination that was hiding and not seem. Cessna 402C - picked up ice and yes there was buffet in the flair and landing. Removed all the ice, so I thought and almost lost it on take off. Next stop after a intensive search I found ice on the bottom of the wing(could barely see it), a 1/4 inch bead at the back of the boot which was left after knocking the ice off. The top of the wing was completely clean and the ice was located inside the between engines and fuselage,outboard was clean, so a little bead of ice maybe 2 feet long and less than a 1/4 inch high almost brought me out of the sky. I think that that area of the aircraft is overlooked too often. I have seen wing covers pulled off and 12 inches of snow between engines and fuselage and no one figures that needs to be cleared. Many years ago when I was getting checked out in a beech 18 I was instructed to hang my arm out the cockpit side window tight to the fuselage pointing down at the wing. It was dramatic. I thought the aircraft was going to fall out of the sky. So in a nut shell. I just might not be the contamination you see or if you do you dismiss it because there isn't much of it. I matters depending on location. When people gasp in horror when you launch with a little frost or rime ice this is likely not what is going to get you. It's the subtle contamination that will.
Contamination on the fuselage -- yup it will fly and not a "critical" surface but consider the impact if you pop one. It's OK to leave like that but is it any more dangerous than a trace of frost. I'm thinking it's worse since frost will wear off almost immediately but the ice and snow on the fuselage will spend most of the day with you. But it's legal -- :smt040
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#138 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:21 pm

Jimmy2 wrote:What did you do for residual ice you picked en route?
I just send the copilot out on the wing in deck shoes to scrape it off as it forms.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#139 Post by Eric Janson » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:27 am

My DC-3 experience in ice/frost is similar to what was previously posted by valleyboy.

The company also operated the aircraft outside. We used to sweep the wings with a broom and we also had cloth wing covers.

The worst icing encounter I've ever had was in a DC-3 in freezing rain enroute.

On approach I kept the speed up and kept the power on and landed with the power on. After reducing the power and as the tail was coming down the control wheel was violently ripped out of my hand as one of the ailerons stalled.

After shutdown I had a look at the wing - there was ice accumulation on the aft side of most of the rivets! I've never seen that before or since.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#140 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:34 am

My comments about wing contamination was directed at not cleaning hoar frost off the wing because we decided we were empty and could take off without cleaning the wings.

Like others here I have flown the DC3 and picked up frightening loads of ice in flight and obviously survived.

There is a big difference in loss of lift caused by wing contamination due to frost on the wings and tail plane and loss of lift built up by ice formation in flight.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#141 Post by pelmet » Wed May 03, 2017 5:23 am

C-FKGL, a Douglas DC-3C aircraft equipped with a Basler Turbo Conversions turbine engine and operated by North Star Air, departed Runway 27 in Pickle Lake, ON (CYPL) for Big Trout Lake, ON (CYTL). After the rotation at 83 KIAS, the flight crew noted an absence of climb performance as the aircraft did not accelerate or achieve a positive rate of climb. The crew subsequently carried out a forced landing and came to rest 1.3 km from the departure end of Runway 27 on the frozen surface
of Pickle Lake. There were no injuries to the 3 occupants.

The weather reported shortly after the occurrence (12:43 CDT) was wind direction from 140° True at 7 knots, visibility of 3/4 of a mile in light snow (snow reported 8 octas). The temperature was -1°C and the dew point was -3°C. The vertical visibility was 500 feet in light snow and the altimeter setting was 29.78 in Hg.

TSB investigators inspected the aircraft at the accident site. The main fuel tanks were full and there was approximately 70 gallons in each auxiliary fuel tanks. TSB calculations, using actual weights and locations of the freight, indicated that the aircraft was within the Maximum Take Off Weight (MTOW) and that the Centre of Gravity (CG) was within the allowable fore and aft limits. The CVR was sent to the TSB Laboratory for download.

The aircraft sustained damage to the engines (Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67R), propellers, and cowlings. The lower longerons and adjacent structures in the engine nacelles were damaged due to impact with the landing gear axles. The drag-brace attachment points of both landing gears were broken away.

The engines were examined at an overhaul facility and there was no indication of any pre-impact conditions that would have contributed to the occurrence. Both propeller governors were functionally tested and were found to be operating normally with no PY air leakage. The TSB was also able to determine that the propellers were rotating at the takeoff setting of 1700 RPM during
the takeoff run.

The aircraft's engines were replaced on the lake and repairs were made to allow the aircraft to depart Pickle Lake on a ferry flight to Thunder Bay, ON (CYQT) for further repairs.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#142 Post by pelmet » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:11 pm

Things worked out better this time.....

"C-FKAL, a Douglas DC3C aircraft operated by North Star Air, was conducting flight BF101 from Deer Lake, ON (CYVZ) to Red Lake, ON (CYRL). During the descent to CYRL, there was a loud bang followed by loss of power from the right engine (PWC PT6A-67R) and automatic feather of the right propeller. The flight crew carried out the engine failure in-flight checklist and declared an emergency. The aircraft landed without further incident and shut down on the runway. The runway was closed for approximately 40 minutes until the aircraft was towed away. Examination of the first and second stage power turbines determined that all blades had fractured. The engine manufacturer determined that all fracture surfaces were consistent with overload fracture, with no evidence of another fracture mechanism such as fatigue or creep. The reason for the overload fractures could not be determined."
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