Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Message
Author
valleyboy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#51 Post by valleyboy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:08 pm

My question is why the F*ck does transport Canada allow these waivers to run it
Well it's hard not to. Read the CARS and they classify a 50,000 turbo jet as a 704 aircraft so it stands to reason a 30,000 turboprop should also be able to. I don't right the rules but when they cater to domestic aircraft manufacturers there is certainly something wrong with how the government creates the laws.

Why is there assumption they departed on 09 -- they departed of 27 looking at the photos, aircraft is headed south west parallel to the south shore from I can see. Runway would be at about 5 o'clock position.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Surfer Dude
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#52 Post by Surfer Dude » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:53 pm

I don't see why they would takeoff uphill with a tailwind.
---------- ADS -----------
  

stef
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:10 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#53 Post by stef » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:31 pm

Work out the tail wind component on your wiz wheel and get back to us on that one.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1218
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#54 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:51 pm

fish4life wrote:My question is why the F*ck does transport Canada allow these waivers to run it 704? It's a 705 airplane and should have to be run as a 705 airplane for performance calculations etc. What's next Cargo jet will be allowed to run the 767 under 704???
I'm confused. How would the paperwork have changed anything? It's either gonna fly, or it ain't? Scads of 705 airplanes have crashed......perhaps they should have been run 704?
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1218
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#55 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:55 pm

stef wrote:Work out the tail wind component on your wiz wheel and get back to us on that one.
You own a wiz wheel?
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Surfer Dude
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#56 Post by Surfer Dude » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:22 pm

The wind probably was no factor but what I was getting at was the uphill. Why take that performance hit when it's not into wind?
---------- ADS -----------
  

stef
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:10 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#57 Post by stef » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:58 pm

I'm not sure why, but it's not unusual.

If it was the Captain I think it was, I can tell you I'd be shocked to find out he did anything other than save the day. He is highly experienced and respected. Your uninformed theories are disrespectful and irritating.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mato
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#58 Post by mato » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:41 pm

Up hill no issue in pickle. It's as comfortable climbing off the hill with terrain getting lower below you and the lake as it is going towards the trees bottom of the hill off 09. My guess they departed 27, and for whatever reason could not keep the climb going after an engine malfunction, and made a slight right turn to settle on the lake. Glad you are all safe.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Kzanol
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:34 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#59 Post by Kzanol » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:33 pm

They would depart off 27 because the Cargo North ramp is right at the threshold of 27. Why taxi for a mile when the wind is no issue?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 927
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#60 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:51 pm

Rejected take-off numbers are significantly better going up-hill. If there's plenty of runway and miles of clearway for the Accelerate-Go, up-hill makes for better Accelerate-Stop performance.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Surfer Dude
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#61 Post by Surfer Dude » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:00 pm

There's not. There are trees 300 feet off the end it says. Does 704 with less than 9 even need ASDA though?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#62 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:27 pm

Don't think so. Otherwise how would it be able to operate out of 3000 foot gravel strips?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 927
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#63 Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:05 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:Don't think so. Otherwise how would it be able to operate out of 3000 foot gravel strips?
...because they fly cargo into the reserves, take-offs are done with an empty aircraft.

Does 704 with less than 9 passengers seats need to meet ASDA? Short answer is no, if authorised on the AOC. CAR 704.46 is pretty clear. However, Pickle Lake's runway is a bit longer than 4900' I bet they had lots of room, especially when it's freezing outside.

From Basler Turbo's website:
Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#64 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm

I guess that makes sense. I wonder if there are any runs though where they make multiple stops in one trip? Or are they always empty when leaving?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18892
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#65 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:50 pm

It would appear they had enough runway to get airborne and clear any obstacles past the end of the runway the question is why did it not stay airborne?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

Surfer Dude
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#66 Post by Surfer Dude » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:31 pm

Perhaps they traded airspeed for altitude to clear those trees:

-taxi out to 27 because it's closer and you save 1 minute
-start takeoff roll uphill and with a (small) tailwind
-lose engine
-have no idea if you are going to be able to stop because TC waivered your balanced field calculations
-remember your training pilot said it's a "homesick angel on one"
-give her the beans
-trees are getting bigger
-yank it over top of them
-stall and descend onto the ice below
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
CLguy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1584
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Reality!

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#67 Post by CLguy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:45 pm

Well Surfer obviously you have never been to Pickle cause you keep talking about trees off the end of 27. The only thing off the end is a big drop off down to the lake. You could run off the end of the runway with a 3 and just keep going until the ground disappears below you. No obstacles to clear! None!
---------- ADS -----------
  
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!

Just another canuck
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#68 Post by Just another canuck » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:22 pm

As long as it wasn't over gross, I don't see why it wouldn't maintain altitude. Lots of extra power there if you need it as well. Lots of issues with the auto feather on that aircraft as well... not that it wasn't working, but rather feathering when it wasn't supposed. Usually on approach, but has happened on the roll too. If Borek can salvage them in Antarctica in much worse shape, I'm sure this one will be up and running in no time.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.

ipilot54
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:58 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#69 Post by ipilot54 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:00 pm

Well, is there anyone on this site old enough to know how Frank operates??? Not over gross? You have to be kidding me! Cat, you alluded to it but were trying to be polite I assume.

Don't know what happened however, to suggest that the aircraft was not over gross is, well, you haven't been around much. Glad everyone is ok and perhaps TC can exercise some wisdom this time.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18892
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#70 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:37 pm

I will not make any comment that would accuse this crew and company of flying over the gross allowable of the airplane because I have no idea what their take off weight was.

However I can say that my faith in TC exercising wisdom is not all that strong.

It will be interesting to see if any factual information comes out before it becomes a thing of the distant past and overshadowed by something else.

Ya gotta love Canadian aviation.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1218
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#71 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:56 pm

Still trying to figure why a departure at 5/8 vis??? If you think vis is a non issue, get some dual.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Eleveniron
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:35 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#72 Post by Eleveniron » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:02 pm

ipilot54 wrote:Well, is there anyone on this site old enough to know how Frank operates??? Not over gross? You have to be kidding me! Cat, you alluded to it but were trying to be polite I assume.

Don't know what happened however, to suggest that the aircraft was not over gross is, well, you haven't been around much. Glad everyone is ok and perhaps TC can exercise some wisdom this time.....
Pretty bold allegations ipilot. And you know the aircraft was over gross how? Is this factual or simply an attempt to stir up s**t?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 927
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#73 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:43 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Still trying to figure why a departure at 5/8 vis??? If you think vis is a non issue, get some dual.
Illya
It's above the legally required 1/2sm required for an IFR departure. Take-off alternate was even discussed briefly earlier on in the thread.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Surfer Dude
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#74 Post by Surfer Dude » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:59 am

CLguy wrote:Well Surfer obviously you have never been to Pickle cause you keep talking about trees off the end of 27. The only thing off the end is a big drop off down to the lake. You could run off the end of the runway with a 3 and just keep going until the ground disappears below you. No obstacles to clear! None!

There are trees off the end of 27 as indicated in the airport diagram and in photographs. The terrain does slope down towards the lake but it is not a clear path like you describe.

Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

piperdriver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 2:30 pm

Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#75 Post by piperdriver » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:00 am

Surfer Dude wrote:Perhaps they traded airspeed for altitude to clear those trees:

-taxi out to 27 because it's closer and you save 1 minute
-start takeoff roll uphill and with a (small) tailwind
-lose engine
-have no idea if you are going to be able to stop because TC waivered your balanced field calculations
-remember your training pilot said it's a "homesick angel on one"
-give her the beans
-trees are getting bigger
-yank it over top of them
-stall and descend onto the ice below
Looking at the damage (or lack thereof) to the aircraft in the photo I would have a hard time believing it was stalled onto the ice.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”