Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

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piperdriver
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#76 Post by piperdriver » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:18 am

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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#77 Post by Surfer Dude » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:32 am

Weather reported in Big Trout Lake (CYTL) when they took off:

METAR CYTL 171700Z AUTO 02006KT 320V060 3/4SM -SN BKN006
BKN011 OVC024 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SLP119=
SPECI CYTL 171619Z AUTO 00000KT 5/8SM -SN BKN006 OVC016 M02/M03
A2983 RMK SLP117=
METAR CYTL 171600Z AUTO VRB02KT 5/8SM -SN OVC016 M02/M03
A2982 RMK SLP114=
METAR CYTL 171500Z AUTO VRB02KT 1/2SM SN OVC013 M03/M04 A2981
RMK SLP110=
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#78 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:27 am

Why is it that whenever stuff like this happens, the weather gets released and something never seems to line up. I'm really curious if they were ifr or vfr... 3/4sm is not 1sm. So 300/1 isn't exactly doable. Everyone remember last time someone from pickle lake operated 300/1 to YTL and didn't make it back?

Many times I've seen them operating out of YRL, vfr... when everyone else was grounded due to fog and vis. I couldn't take off one day because I needed a take off alternate which wasn't available due to the low vis but sure enough there goes the Basler. Up to Pik/Pop/Deer/Sandy where the minimums are way above the current ceiling. I know it's advisory only but does FSS not say anything? I could clearly see them flying into cloud on departure at 200-300'. This shit needs to stop.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#79 Post by Just another canuck » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:45 am

If they're business model is anything like Wasaya's and I suspect it is, they don't make money when they depart IFR. Having to carry the extra fuel decreases the freight load and when you charge by the pound or kilogram, that extra fuel your carrying is your profit. That's why they depart VFR. Why they are sitting in the middle of a frozen lake is another question. Failed engine and couldn't maintain? Failed auto feather system and couldn't maintain? Or maybe just plain CFIT? If I was going to force land or precautionary on a frozen lake, I would have extended the gear. Is it retracted or sheared off somewhere behind the aircraft? Unless of course, there wasn't time, which is entirely possible given the position of the accident.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#80 Post by lownslow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:02 am

Surfer Dude wrote:Weather reported in Big Trout Lake (CYTL) when they took off:

METAR CYTL 171700Z AUTO 02006KT 320V060 3/4SM -SN BKN006
BKN011 OVC024 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SLP119=
SPECI CYTL 171619Z AUTO 00000KT 5/8SM -SN BKN006 OVC016 M02/M03
A2983 RMK SLP117=
METAR CYTL 171600Z AUTO VRB02KT 5/8SM -SN OVC016 M02/M03
A2982 RMK SLP114=
METAR CYTL 171500Z AUTO VRB02KT 1/2SM SN OVC013 M03/M04 A2981
RMK SLP110=
The optimist in me sees an upward trend!
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#81 Post by GyvAir » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:44 am

From the CADORS:
Occurrence Category(ies):

Collision with obstacle(s) during take-off or landing whilst airborne.
Is the lake surface considered an obstacle?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#82 Post by FOD_Vacuum » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:59 am

Lets be happy the lake was frozen...could have been a lot worse for the company and crew trying to get out of a sinking airplane and also having to salvage and aircraft from the bottom of the lake. I've always wondered how the ice would hold up a small turboprop, and I have always been fairly confident that ice will hold it, based on the fact that loaded semis go on the ice every day. Could have been a lot worse. I do hope they find out what happened so it doesn't happen again and keep flying safely.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#83 Post by Mick G » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:18 am

There have been a lot of accidents at Pickle Lake over the years, anybody keeping track?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#84 Post by piperdriver » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:35 pm

Mick G wrote:There have been a lot of accidents at Pickle Lake over the years, anybody keeping track?
1986-1987 I personally think the damn place was cursed.

March 17, 1986 DHC-3 C-FBEW SN#140 was landing on remote lake 46 miles north of Pickle Lake hits ice ridge on landing and gear folds up and the aircraft comes to rest on the lake. From what I heard it wasn't damaged too badly initially. During the recovery slinging the aircraft out with a helicopter the aircraft was dropped were it was substantially damaged and the wreck was hauled to Kuby's in Kenora and sat there for at least a decade. I believe Recon Air purchased it from Kuby. Recon Air rebuilt and converted it to a Garrett sometime between 2007-2010? I believe this aircraft now sports an american registration.

Septemeber 2nd 1986 DHC-3 C-FBER SN#86 Suffered an engine failure and was force landed in a swamp and most of the aircraft burned in post impact fire. Pilot and swamper made it safely out of the aircraft. More info on this thread: viewtopic.php?t=36165

May 11 1987 DC-3 returning to Pickle Lake from Big Trout on a freight haul, wing folds up in flight and crashes 3 km from Pickle Lake Airport.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19870511-1
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#85 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:51 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Illya Kuryakin wrote:Still trying to figure why a departure at 5/8 vis??? If you think vis is a non issue, get some dual.
Illya
It's above the legally required 1/2sm required for an IFR departure. Take-off alternate was even discussed briefly earlier on in the thread.
Perfect example of legal not being necessarily wise, or safe. Check the WX at the destination then get back to me. We have no idea what their takeoff alternate was. You don't file them. When the smoke clears I'm sure you'll find they were attempting to return for a landing. Me? I'd be putting the coals to my one engine and heading to YQT!! They have a KEG there.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#86 Post by Siddley Hawker » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:50 pm

ETAR CYTL 171700Z AUTO 02006KT 320V060 3/4SM -SN BKN006
BKN011 OVC024 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SLP119=
Had they been deiced?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#87 Post by Antique Pilot » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:31 pm

Mick G wrote:There have been a lot of accidents at Pickle Lake over the years, anybody keeping track?
On May 12, 1977 a DC-3 went into the lake at about the same spot after taking off from runway 27. Engine problem and they couldn't get the gear up. Load of fuel oil in a bladder. The accident was witnessed from the seaplane base over at the waterfront. A pilot jumped into a Beaver and either flew or step taxied over to the site. The DC-3 captain was trapped in the submerged cockpit but the first officer was able to get out. The Beaver pilot tried to dive down and get the captain out but was unsuccessful. So now the Beaver pilot with the rescued DC-3 FO takes off and heads back to the waterfront. The Beaver flipped on landing but they got out ok. Just imagine, the DC-3 FO was in 2 serious crashes in the space of about 20 minutes.

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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#88 Post by bald seagull » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:13 pm

Antique Pilot wrote:
Mick G wrote:There have been a lot of accidents at Pickle Lake over the years, anybody keeping track?
On May 12, 1977 a DC-3 went into the lake at about the same spot after taking off from runway 27. Engine problem and they couldn't get the gear up. Load of fuel oil in a bladder. The accident was witnessed from the seaplane base over at the waterfront. A pilot jumped into a Beaver and either flew or step taxied over to the site. The DC-3 captain was trapped in the submerged cockpit but the first officer was able to get out. The Beaver pilot tried to dive down and get the captain out but was unsuccessful. So now the Beaver pilot with the rescued DC-3 FO takes off and heads back to the waterfront. The Beaver flipped on landing but they got out ok. Just imagine, the DC-3 FO was in 2 serious crashes in the space of about 20 minutes.

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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#89 Post by Mick G » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:24 am

I believe one of Air Manitoba's C46 was crash landed in the late 1980's at Pickle Lake, not sure what became of it
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#90 Post by Antique Pilot » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:41 am

Mick G wrote:I believe one of Air Manitoba's C46 was crash landed in the late 1980's at Pickle Lake, not sure what became of it
Aircraft did not crash land. Control was lost during take off in a strong crosswind and the aircraft went off the side of the runway. It was salvaged and made ferriable. It went to Buffalo Airways after that.

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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#91 Post by Surfer Dude » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:56 am

Just another canuck wrote:Having to carry the extra fuel decreases the freight load and when you charge by the pound or kilogram, that extra fuel your carrying is your profit.
I hope the TSB flipped the master on and checked what's in the tanks vs. what's written down on paper. I imagine there might be quite a bit more on board than minimum fuel considering the weather that day.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#92 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:12 am

I hope the TSB flipped the master on and checked what's in the tanks vs.
Even more logical would be that they drain the tanks and then get an accurate measure of how much fuel there was in it.

There was a time when that was the way they did the investigation.

Another advantage to draining the tanks is what they may find.

We lost a waterbomber just after take off.

When they drained the tanks they found the tanks had hundreds of pounds of water in them.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#93 Post by shimmydampner » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Surfer Dude wrote:I imagine there might be quite a bit more on board than minimum fuel considering the weather that day.
Jeez, I hope so. That's just good common sense.
Although, I don't understand the sentiment from a couple posters here that seem to be gleefully hoping these guys get nailed to the wall for something they may or may not have done. We have very little info on this incident other than the crew got served a turd sandwich at a very inopportune time and did an impressive job of dealing with it. Why not leave it at that for now? You could save your self righteous indignation until an investigation reveals the facts.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#94 Post by TG » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:03 am

I see that nobody still as a clue of what happened.

To add another silly (or not) theory since one of the prop seems feathered.
-The pnf pulling out by mistake, with his/her winter's sleeve, one condition lever to "stop" while reaching back from the instrument panel.



Don't laugh, it is something relatively easy to do on the Basler. Mainly from the right seat if you don't pay attention.




Disclaimer: Again, it is a just another possibility out of hundreds.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#95 Post by valleyboy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:14 am

To add another silly (or not) theory since one of the prop seems feathered
That is one fact that is known, the engines were both producing power, but you should read the whole thread because that was already proposed. For all the other throwing stones, the aircraft was under max gross. As pointed out there are several ghouls posting. All I have to say about that is don't even consider it could never happen to you, unless you post here as an expert and have really never flown. Then likely something going sideways in and aircraft is remote.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#96 Post by TG » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:04 am

valleyboy wrote:
To add another silly (or not) theory since one of the prop seems feathered
That is one fact that is known, the engines were both producing power, but you should read the whole thread because that was already proposed.
Ah, I must be blind...
Actually I think you misunderstood me.

I 'm not talking about intentionally shutting down a wrong engine but just shutting one off via its condition lever. After doing an unrelated move with your arm accross it.
Like I said, with those long levers, it is a mistake easy to do on this type.


I am not saying it is what happen, or saying that to blame the crew. Not at all, I am just throwing another scenario out of a hundreds since nobody here have a clue yet of what happen to bring the aircraft down.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#97 Post by NotDirty! » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:35 am

TG wrote: since nobody here have a clue yet of what happen to bring the aircraft down.
My guess is gravity.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#98 Post by Jean-Pierre » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:55 am

I am quite interested in the recovery operation. Could someone take some picture that is in Pickle Lake? As other said it would be best to fix it there and fly it off but the weather forecast shows plus temperature all week. It will be very slippy and maybe slushy place to work. Towing it to the airport would be harder though it looks like a lot of tree and steep hill.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#99 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:41 pm

Mick G wrote:There have been a lot of accidents at Pickle Lake over the years, anybody keeping track?
Actually, for the number and type of flights in and around YPL, it's not been all that bad.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

#100 Post by Donald » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:51 pm

Double post
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Last edited by Donald on Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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