AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#1 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:46 pm

SFO near miss might have triggered ‘greatest aviation disaster in history’


What brutally sensationalist reporting. If it's even true, a non-event. Unless of course the pilots were landing with their eyes closed. (Which I occasionally do, it seems to improve my flare technique).

Maybe AC should add RAAS to GPS on their Christmas wish list for the 320 fleet?

Also, is it not SOP to tune up an ILS or plug in an RNAV approach when flying a visual? I humbly submit that whether it is or not, it's actually a Pretty Good Idea. (PGI)
---------- ADS -----------
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#2 Post by crazyaviator » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:05 pm

A go around initiated by a tower call due to an approach to a taxiway is a non-event ?? I guess the DC-3 "landing" on the ice is a non-event also WHEN there are no deaths, do we call it a non-event UNTIL enough bodies pile up ?
---------- ADS -----------

Eric Janson
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#3 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:54 pm

Well - the FAA is investigating. I'd say this is a bit more than a "non event".....

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5969 ... c-sfo.html

Ground track from the noise monitoring website (post eight) clearly shows the flight lined up with twy 'C'.
---------- ADS -----------
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business

Jimmy2
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:50 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#4 Post by Jimmy2 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:16 am

What is going on with all the incidents on the 320 fleet? Is it possible this related to the PML and hiring of crews that otherwise perhaps wouldn't have been?
---------- ADS -----------

av8ts
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#5 Post by av8ts » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:21 am

Jimmy2 wrote:What is going on with all the incidents on the 320 fleet? Is it possible this related to the PML and hiring of crews that otherwise perhaps wouldn't have been?
What does that even mean. The PML pilots who wouldn't have been hired didn't get hired
---------- ADS -----------

linecrew
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1635
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
Location: On final so get off the damn runway!

AC A320 lines up on taxiway on approach to KSFO

#6 Post by linecrew » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:17 am

http://www.jacdec.de/2017/07/11/2017-07 ... francicso/
Air Canada flight AC 759 from Toronto was on a visual approach for landing on runway 28R at San Francisco International Airport, CA (Chart) in darkness but good visibility conditions. The flight was cleared to land behind a Delta Air Lines Boeing 737-900 (DL 521) and the landing clearance correctly acknowledged.

On final approach the aircraft began deviating to the right of the propper approach track aiming to the parallel taxiway „charlie“.

The pilots questioned the tower about disturbing lights that appeared to be on the runway but tower controller responded there is any other aircraft on the runway.

At the time several other departing aircraft queued on taxiway „Charlie“ awaiting departure from runway 28R after the landing of AC 759. The first in the line was United Airlines flight 1 (UAL 1) from San Francisco to Singapore, a Boeing 787-900 (N29961). It was only after the pilot of this aircraft expressed his concerns about the misdirected approach when tower controller instructed AC 759 to do a go-around.

The pilots immediately responded and abandoned the landing. According to flight tracking websites, the A320 was put into a climb at about 200 feet and the flight returned for a safe landing on runway 28R about 15 minutes later.
---------- ADS -----------

ktcanuck
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:58 am

How? (SFO near hit)

#7 Post by ktcanuck » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:27 am

...can this happen with approach lights as they are?

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/10/e ... n-history/

:?:
---------- ADS -----------

Bajan Pilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:07 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#8 Post by Bajan Pilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:56 am

"Is it possible this related to the PML"

Give me a friggin' break. The crap some people post amazes me sometimes.
---------- ADS -----------

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#9 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:57 am

Express pilots have been doing a pretty good job of landing on the runway. Don't think that would change when they switch employers.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Jean-Pierre
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#10 Post by Jean-Pierre » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:05 am

---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#11 Post by Localizer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:18 am

When did Harrison Ford get hired at Air Canada?

:D
---------- ADS -----------

av8ts
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: How? (SFO near hit)

#12 Post by av8ts » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:21 am

If we can have four threads about the same story why not?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1624
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#13 Post by AirFrame » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:33 am

Localizer wrote:When did Harrison Ford get hired at Air Canada?
:D
Damn it... Beat me to it by 14 minutes... :P
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Inverted2
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1882
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#14 Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:37 am

Localizer wrote:When did Harrison Ford get hired at Air Canada?

:D
Stevie Wonder was doing Harrison's line indoc :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Inverted2 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pelmet
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2800
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: AC A320 lines up on taxiway on approach to KSFO

#15 Post by pelmet » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:38 am

Typically, one just sets up for the ILS approach(or RNAV if ILS not available) which brings you down on the centerline making visual illusions less likely to result in lining up with something that you should not be lining up with. Seattle is a good example that catches the occasional airliner landing on a taxiway instead of a runway. The last guys to do it in SEA were a locally based crew accepting a sidestep with sunshine in their eyes.
---------- ADS -----------

wallypilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1592
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:59 pm
Location: The Best Coast

Re: AC A320 lines up on taxiway on approach to KSFO

#16 Post by wallypilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:39 am

Without any information at all, and not reading the article,because I am ina rush, if there was SOIA operations ongoing, there is that possibility on the right when angling in and transitioning to visual that they lined up to the right of the intended landing runway...if you were straight in on an ILS, I really don't see how this could have happened.
---------- ADS -----------

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2485
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#17 Post by altiplano » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:57 am

The visual approach on 28R is an offset approach that tracks in from the right of centerline across the apparent approach for the taxiway.

I think this was just being cautious after the comment from the guy on the ground.

28R at night is very obvious.
---------- ADS -----------

The Hammer
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:46 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#18 Post by The Hammer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:10 pm

Yikes

"ACA759 had overflown Taxiway C for approximately 0.25 miles when ATC instructed the
aircraft to go around. Four aircraft were positioned on Taxiway C at the time of the event. It is
estimated that ACA759 overflew the first two aircraft by 100 feet, the third one by 200 feet and the
last one by 300 feet. The closest lateral proximity between ACA759 and one of the four aircraft on
Taxiway C was 29 feet. The NTSB is investigating."
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#19 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:31 pm

The Hammer wrote:Yikes

"ACA759 had overflown Taxiway C for approximately 0.25 miles when ATC instructed the
aircraft to go around. Four aircraft were positioned on Taxiway C at the time of the event. It is
estimated that ACA759 overflew the first two aircraft by 100 feet, the third one by 200 feet and the
last one by 300 feet. The closest lateral proximity between ACA759 and one of the four aircraft on
Taxiway C was 29 feet. The NTSB is investigating."
That appears a tad more dangerous than Harrison ford, but I'm certainly no expert ---
---------- ADS -----------

ditar
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: This pale blue dot

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#20 Post by ditar » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:22 pm

I can see how this might all be a lot of hoopla about nothing. Flying the approach offset to the right is the correct procedure. I've landed 28R before and kept it offset maybe a little longer than necessary due to another airplane off my left wingtip. Given that 28R is not the usual departure runway, the crew of an aircraft waiting on the taxiway might have gotten nervous. I guess the question is if the AC crew knew where they were going why did they think there were lights where there shouldn't be. It's possible there are a few important facts missing here.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
complexintentions
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#21 Post by complexintentions » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:02 pm

When I call it a non-event, I am directly referring to the "GREATEST AVIATION DISASTER IN HISTORY" nonsense rhetoric in the news story. I think I am correct in pointing out that this disaster did not happen? Hence, an event that did not occur, or as I call it...a non-event. Of course for those who enjoy breathless telenovelas it certainly sounds exciting "HE FLEW RIGHT OVER ME", wow! I like to poke fun at my AC brethren on occasion but I'm 100% sure they weren't going to land on top of the lights they obviously saw (obvious, because they asked what they were). Yes, they lost situational awareness, and no, it wasn't SECONDS AWAY FROM DISASTER.

rookiepilot, I know you're convinced you're making some profound point about the difference in responses to this and Asiana, but if you can't discern the differences between both the scenarios and the outcomes, well, carry on I guess. And you do realize Harrison Ford actually landed, right? So a go-around is more dangerous than landing, is that it?

The offset mentioned isn't a valid defence - as published (Quiet Bridge) the offset is only required to be maintained until San Mateo bridge, which is about 6 mile final - they went around at 200ft. Does anyone even know what approach they were flying? (ILS/visual/charted visual)

I was not attempting to completely minimize the event - someone goofed up and they are looking at why. But everything worked exactly as designed and the error was corrected.

Next drama, please.
---------- ADS -----------
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

pelmet
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2800
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#22 Post by pelmet » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:13 pm

Apparently cleared for a Bridge visual not a SOIA.

This post that I linked from another forum seems like a very plausible scenario....Perhaps only one set of approach and runway lights that are assumed to be for the other runway. If it looked like the first video at 3:41 seconds but without the PAPIs for 28L illuminated, one starts to see what may have happened. To add to it......A set of bright approach lights visible, a second set of green lights visible(oops, don't we all know that they are for taxiways only), crew has been to SFO several times but never seen the north parallel taxiway used and not really aware that it exists.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5969 ... ost9827343

Also, some audio here....

https://soundcloud.com/user-66001055/au ... liveatcnet

I wonder if the Bridge Visual is in the FMS and being displayed on the PFD and if so, can an ILS still be tuned as a backup?
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by pelmet on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 9 times in total.

Navajo Flyer
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:00 pm

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#23 Post by Navajo Flyer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:24 pm

It always seems to happen when conducting a visual approach. Here's another AC incident on a visual approach into Kelowna.
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 3p0259.pdf

Hopefully we can all learn from it!!!
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
justwork
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 444
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:59 am

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#24 Post by justwork » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:28 pm

ditar wrote:I can see how this might all be a lot of hoopla about nothing. Flying the approach offset to the right is the correct procedure. I've landed 28R before and kept it offset maybe a little longer than necessary due to another airplane off my left wingtip. Given that 28R is not the usual departure runway, the crew of an aircraft waiting on the taxiway might have gotten nervous. I guess the question is if the AC crew knew where they were going why did they think there were lights where there shouldn't be. It's possible there are a few important facts missing here.
Might have gotten nervous? Didn't I just read AC was 100 Feet away from the first aircraft vertically, and 29 feet laterally... I'd have been pretty nervous too. I'd imagine that to get that close, it was more than just "kept the offset a little longer than necessary".

The good news is this is being investigated in the US, so a report will be issued promptly. If this was being investigated in Canada, which is a HUGE if, the report would be issued in months.... maybe longer.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
xsbank
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5654
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: "The Coast"

Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#25 Post by xsbank » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:01 pm

I feel for these guys because they went around, spending a bit more of the company's money than they liked, but it certainly wasn't the disaster of the century, or even of that day. Humans make funny mistakes for strange unexplained reasons and some survive, some don't - we pay all those guys to watch over us so that this doesn't happen - it didn't.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by xsbank on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”