AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by complexintentions » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:50 pm

rookiepilot wrote:Can't believe some of the tweets. 100 feet clearance isn't serious enough? How close would everyone like it?

What if the engines didn't spool for any reason, instantly? Get real people. We are talking a matter of what a few seconds?

Comedy hour here, except it's not funny.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Geezuz. Driving must be truly terrifying for you, with all those other vehicles whizzing by in the opposite direction, mere feet away. What if one of the other drivers miscalculates the curve ever so slightly? What if, what if?
photofly wrote:"Small war, not many dead."
I forget, how many people died in this incident at SFO again?

Completely erroneous attempt at an analogy.

The system actually worked correctly here. The frenzied masses seem to think that error has been eliminated. It has not - it never will be. The key is preventing any many as possible and then reacting when they DO. Which is what happened here. Too late? You decide. But it isn't the point. The point is this incident had a good outcome, which will only become better if the investigation provides insight that prevent future repeats.
confusedalot wrote:As the ancient cliché goes, ignorance is bliss.

Is is not unsettling to know what goes on in the pointy end at times?


You said it. I think the reason people react so viscerally to this incident is that it reminds them that they really are mortal and vulnerable. And they don't like that.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jean-Pierre » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:38 am

I think what is scary is not that you are vulnerable but that the pilot didn't see 4 airplane right in front of them with their light on until the very last second if at all.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by complexintentions » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:37 am

More puzzling than scary. Maybe that's why they're doing an investigation...do you think?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:02 am

complexintentions wrote:More puzzling than scary. Maybe that's why they're doing an investigation...do you think?
How do you know the NTSB doesn't look at this as extremely serious?

It's funny Complex you want to be respected as a pro doing your job. Respect the pro's at the NTSB then too.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:48 am

complexintentions wrote:More puzzling than scary. Maybe that's why they're doing an investigation...do you think?
The scary bit is that they descended to 58ft AGL over the taxiway in between two planes with tail heights of 55.5ft. To be honest I'm a bit baffled why anyone wouldn't think this is scary.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:07 pm

This is not scary if it is a rehearsed airshow. This is not an airshow. Was it a rehearsed airshow. No. This is an error.

Could it be a non event, yes, it is a non event. Could it be a potential disaster, yes, a few more seconds and..............
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:47 am

confusedalot wrote:This is not scary if it is a rehearsed airshow. This is not an airshow. Was it a rehearsed airshow. No. This is an error.

Could it be a non event, yes, it is a non event. Could it be a potential disaster, yes, a few more seconds and..............
Was it an error? Obviously.
Could it have been a disaster? Yes.
Was it a disaster? No.
Is it worth investigating? Obviously.
Are they investigating? Yes.

Is finding out why this error occurred more important than villifying the crew before knowing all the facts? Depends who you ask apparently....
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:16 am

Rockie wrote:
confusedalot wrote:This is not scary if it is a rehearsed airshow. This is not an airshow. Was it a rehearsed airshow. No. This is an error.

Could it be a non event, yes, it is a non event. Could it be a potential disaster, yes, a few more seconds and..............
Was it an error? Obviously.
Could it have been a disaster? Yes.
Was it a disaster? No.
Is it worth investigating? Obviously.
Are they investigating? Yes.

Is finding out why this error occurred more important than villifying the crew before knowing all the facts? Depends who you ask apparently....
Rockie, please accept this as constructive criticism with no intent to slight you and any way, shape form. I believe you succumb to what I call " the anonymous Twitter Troll syndrome " in that you respond to every time to the same " could have been, may have and probably did" commentary from those who basically, is all they can add. I am not a pilot for Air Canada, I know nothing about the A320 and I have never flown into SFO in my life as a pilot but I understand the facts: an AirCanada A320 on a SFO night approach lined up on a taxiway that had aircraft on it, thinking they were on final for the active runway. The error was recognized with input from flight crew, the other aircraft and ATC, a go around resulted and the aircraft landed uneventful on second approach. There was no damage to any aircraft and no injuries to any passengers or ground people and no fatalities. It was a serious incident and is under active investigation by NTSB and final report hasn't been released.

I believe I got it right.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:53 am

No slight percieved Old Fella. This is just a discussion, one which I've stayed away from for a few days. While I am not defending this crew as I've stated before, I do believe there needs to be an adult, reasonable voice in any conversation of this type to offset the alarmists and speculators. I have nothing personal or professional at stake here, it's just a discussion.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:29 am

Rockie wrote:No slight percieved Old Fella. This is just a discussion, one which I've stayed away from for a few days. While I am not defending this crew as I've stated before, I do believe there needs to be an adult, reasonable voice in any conversation of this type to offset the alarmists and speculators. I have nothing personal or professional at stake here, it's just a discussion.
Well....... as the name implies, I am an older example 67 yrs to be exact. Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Cheers
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:00 am

Old fella wrote:Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Cheers
:drinkers:
Well, actually I've never thought that of anybody I've gotten into spirited discussions with. At AC we all know many great people who couldn't get a job here for some reason that no one can fathom. As far as the majority of us are concerned not being hired here is not an indictment against someone's skills or character. If someone doesn't solve the rubic's cube of requirements I would understand a little bitterness though and wouldn't hold it against them. Very few people haven't been in that position at one time or another.

I do prefer sensible arguments though which makes me unpopular at times with my colleagues in and out of Air Canada.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:30 am

Guess you wouldn't be a boring person over a beer on a layover in dare I say SFO. Loved my visit there other year as a BD gift from my better half of 38 years. Flew there on Air Canada from YYZ on a 320, maybe you were driving, who knows.

I indulge in spirited discussions as well......... don't get me going on Naturopathy/Homeopathy!!!!

By your leave.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:20 pm

Waaay off topic here but here goes.

Does anyone out there subscribe to the notion that a job at big red equates to winning a lottery? After all, they can't hire everyone since the seats are limited.

Full disclosure, and as part of the majority, have been turned down, 3 times. At one point, it was just not even worth applying anymore since my livelihood was taking shape elsewhere. Even had a couple of internal references.

On one hand I understand the lottery/best fit/persona thing. On the other, just cannot figure out the mystery.

I too, have been bowled over when some had announced they were turned down. Great people that in my mind would have zero problems.

And, for the record, still saying fatigue is the best way to get these two guys out of the weeds........
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jimmy2 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:25 am

No almost everyone I know there are quite unhappy. One of them is even considering giving up flying all together to go work his parent's farm.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by BTD » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:29 am

Jimmy2 wrote:No almost everyone I know there are quite unhappy. One of them is even considering giving up flying all together to go work his parent's farm.
I never did trust anecdotal evidence.

I am happy here. And have been for 6 yrs. It isn't perfect, but then what is.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:39 am

Old fella wrote:
Well....... as the name implies, I am an older example 67 yrs to be exact. Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Look at what you just posted. A person that speculates on this incident(which happens with most incidents) after saying is was a close call has a motive and is a failed candidate or someone who shouldn't be flying for Air Canada.

Sounds to me like you didn't learn much in your 67 years.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:21 am

hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
Well....... as the name implies, I am an older example 67 yrs to be exact. Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Look at what you just posted. A person that speculates on this incident(which happens with most incidents) after saying is was a close call has a motive and is a failed candidate or someone who shouldn't be flying for Air Canada.

Sounds to me like you didn't learn much in your 67 years.
I learned a lot believe me. Take rampant speculation with a grain of salt
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:14 am

hamstandard wrote:
Look at what you just posted. A person that speculates on this incident(which happens with most incidents) after saying is was a close call has a motive and is a failed candidate or someone who shouldn't be flying for Air Canada.

Sounds to me like you didn't learn much in your 67 years.
I'm going to hazard a guess that personality figures quite highly in AC's requirements, in which case Old Fella probably had more of a chance of getting a job there than some other people in this thread.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:08 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Look at what you just posted. A person that speculates on this incident(which happens with most incidents) after saying is was a close call has a motive and is a failed candidate or someone who shouldn't be flying for Air Canada.

Sounds to me like you didn't learn much in your 67 years.
I'm going to hazard a guess that personality figures quite highly in AC's requirements, in which case Old Fella probably had more of a chance of getting a job there than some other people in this thread.
I'll second that.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by sampsonmcd » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:48 am

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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:11 pm

Old fella wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
Well....... as the name implies, I am an older example 67 yrs to be exact. Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Look at what you just posted. A person that speculates on this incident(which happens with most incidents) after saying is was a close call has a motive and is a failed candidate or someone who shouldn't be flying for Air Canada.

Sounds to me like you didn't learn much in your 67 years.
I learned a lot believe me. Take rampant speculation with a grain of salt
I suppose you are right when I think about it.

Without any details known, there has been rampant speculation about fatigue as a factor among other things. I agree that speculation on anything about this incident without any other information to back it up really does make those posters unfit to work for the Air Canada.

Thanks for setting me straight.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:53 pm

The speculation, or comments, or ideas have been somewhat innocuous. Suspect that it is not permissible to make any inputs when big red is involved, under pain of being labeled unfit to do a job? It's just talk.

So, cross out fatigue, what are the options? The airplane is no good? Sarcastically, the devil made them do it?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:25 pm

confusedalot wrote:The speculation, or comments, or ideas have been somewhat innocuous. Suspect that it is not permissible to make any inputs when big red is involved, under pain of being labeled unfit to do a job? It's just talk.

So, cross out fatigue, what are the options? The airplane is no good? Sarcastically, the devil made them do it?
People make mistakes due to perception even without fatigue. Illusions, bias, etc are all human factors that may have had a role in thr incident.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:40 pm

confusedalot wrote:The speculation, or comments, or ideas have been somewhat innocuous. Suspect that it is not permissible to make any inputs when big red is involved, under pain of being labeled unfit to do a job? It's just talk.
People just come up with stupid statements and then claim that their age or something else makes them correct. Think about it for a second. You may or may not like Rockie but analyze the statements not the person. Who here knows what they are talkinng about in the posts below and who is just making a stupid statement. The statements reflect a persons thought process.Think about it for a second. There are over 30 pages of on this incident on PPRUNE, most by persons living in other countries flying for foreign airlines. Are they really all failed AC candidates. 67 years is a long time.
Rockie wrote:
Old fella wrote:Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Cheers
:drinkers:
Well, actually I've never thought that of anybody I've gotten into spirited discussions with. At AC we all know many great people who couldn't get a job here for some reason that no one can fathom. As far as the majority of us are concerned not being hired here is not an indictment against someone's skills or character. If someone doesn't solve the rubic's cube of requirements I would understand a little bitterness though and wouldn't hold it against them. Very few people haven't been in that position at one time or another.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:41 am

hamstandard wrote:
confusedalot wrote:The speculation, or comments, or ideas have been somewhat innocuous. Suspect that it is not permissible to make any inputs when big red is involved, under pain of being labeled unfit to do a job? It's just talk.
People just come up with stupid statements and then claim that their age or something else makes them correct. Think about it for a second. You may or may not like Rockie but analyze the statements not the person. Who here knows what they are talkinng about in the posts below and who is just making a stupid statement. The statements reflect a persons thought process.Think about it for a second. There are over 30 pages of on this incident on PPRUNE, most by persons living in other countries flying for foreign airlines. Are they really all failed AC candidates. 67 years is a long time.
Rockie wrote:
Old fella wrote:Been around enough to understand motives and alarmists/speculators usually have an axe to grind for some reason....... failed candidates or individuals AC would never have in the front offices of any of their aircraft. No doubt that has crossed your mind but your resolve/politeness is stronger than this cranky old guy to say such.

Cheers
:drinkers:
Well, actually I've never thought that of anybody I've gotten into spirited discussions with. At AC we all know many great people who couldn't get a job here for some reason that no one can fathom. As far as the majority of us are concerned not being hired here is not an indictment against someone's skills or character. If someone doesn't solve the rubic's cube of requirements I would understand a little bitterness though and wouldn't hold it against them. Very few people haven't been in that position at one time or another.
PPRune site..... 30 pages on an aircraft that did a go around at SFO. Somebody mention one time that place is a Speculators wet dream site, more drivel posted there that was thought humanly possible Same individual also indicated he saw posts from pilots in who spent most of their careers in the warm climate Southern Hemisphere speculating on Canadian North of 60 incidents, might have been that First Air '37 I don't know and care even less, especially on PPrune speculation. Enough said!!
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