AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:44 pm

Pprune has over four hundred and thirty five thousand members, within that group are some of the most experienced people in aviation.

When I worked in Europe Pprune was the main site I read and posted on, however since I retired I seldom post there but for sure I read it and find it to still be the best site in aviation if you are really interested in getting good comments.

The San Fran incident has a lot of comments because it obviously is of interest to aviation people and they are still discussing it.

Lets see what the final report is and then see if it just fades away on Pprune.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Alav » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:26 pm

http://globalnews.ca/news/3663958/impor ... m=Facebook
The cockpit voice recording from an Air Canada flight that nearly collided with several planes on a busy taxiway at San Francisco International Airport in July has been erased and experts say it could have been critical to the investigation.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:33 pm

Terminology is important here, "overwritten" is vastly different than "erased".
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:07 pm

Old fella wrote:
PPRune site..... 30 pages on an aircraft that did a go around at SFO. Somebody mention one time that place is a Speculators wet dream site, more drivel posted there that was thought humanly possible Same individual also indicated he saw posts from pilots in who spent most of their careers in the warm climate Southern Hemisphere speculating on Canadian North of 60 incidents, might have been that First Air '37 I don't know and care even less, especially on PPrune speculation. Enough said!!
Whether it is drivel or not is not what I am talking about. It is your statement that anyone who speculates is likely a failed applicant at AC. Now that is drivel. I bet that the vast majority of those posters on that thread are even Canadians. The point has been made. You don't know what you are talking about.

Plenty of speculation of course, just like every accident. But like Cat said, there are a hell of a lot of extremely experienced pilots posting on PPrune who do know what they are talking about, many over 67 years old.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by pelmet » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:23 pm

Rockie wrote:Terminology is important here, "overwritten" is vastly different than "erased".
Not sure what can be done when it is overwritten. I used to know a guy who worked at the TSB analyzing recorders. He would give me the inside info on what was said on the CVR's as our government seems to think it should be top secret. Heard a lot of interesting stuff including from foreign investigations.

He told me about a case of an American airline that had a runway overrun. It turned out that the solid state CVR had been erased. So the TSB couldn't get any info. But...the maufacturer had special techniques to get the info. I guess a bit like erasing something on your computer. It is really still on your computer(or so I have been told) but inaccessible with normal techniques.

Turns out that they had the overrun, everybody evacuated with power shut off, then mysteriously the power went back on sometime later and the erase button was pushed, by the PIC of course.

So...you may not really be erasing the recorder when you press erase.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:56 am

You're right about erasing. For instance when you delete a file from your computer you aren't really deleting the file, just the link to it. That allows that space on the drive to be over written by new data, but the old stuff is still actually there. Similarly I believe experts can retrace and retrieve data that has been over written provided it hasn't been done too many times.

What I was talking about here though reference the CVR is the difference between "over written" which happens normally by itself after 2 hours, and "erased" which is a deliberate act.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by cgzro » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:44 am

I thought modern CVRs had 2 hours of solid state memory? Or was this an older 30 minute tape loop model?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:45 am

hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
PPRune site..... 30 pages on an aircraft that did a go around at SFO. Somebody mention one time that place is a Speculators wet dream site, more drivel posted there that was thought humanly possible Same individual also indicated he saw posts from pilots in who spent most of their careers in the warm climate Southern Hemisphere speculating on Canadian North of 60 incidents, might have been that First Air '37 I don't know and care even less, especially on PPrune speculation. Enough said!!
Whether it is drivel or not is not what I am talking about. It is your statement that anyone who speculates is likely a failed applicant at AC. Now that is drivel. I bet that the vast majority of those posters on that thread are even Canadians. The point has been made. You don't know what you are talking about.

Plenty of speculation of course, just like every accident. But like Cat said, there are a hell of a lot of extremely experienced pilots posting on PPrune who do know what they are talking about, many over 67 years old.[/quote

Speculation is somebody's opinion nothing more or less regardless the medium where expressed. ''Tis the old adage "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". NTSB is the final authority on this incident they don't speculate.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by jpilot77 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:15 am

cgzro said
I thought modern CVRs had 2 hours of solid state memory? Or was this an older 30 minute tape loop model?
Except AC's 320s are closing in on being 30 year old aircraft.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:43 am

jpilot77 wrote:cgzro said
I thought modern CVRs had 2 hours of solid state memory? Or was this an older 30 minute tape loop model?
Except AC's 320s are closing in on being 30 year old aircraft.
Rockie wrote:What I was talking about here though reference the CVR is the difference between "over written" which happens normally by itself after 2 hours, and "erased" which is a deliberate act.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Alav » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:37 am

After an incident - wouldn't one choose to take steps to preserve that data?

They knew they were going to hear about it, so allowing it to be overwritten is kinda the same as physically erasing. If there was nothing to hide - then preserve it, let the investigation run its course and learn.

So now they get even worse media by taking this course which may or may not be worse than the actual incident.

From the non pilot not affiliated to any airline aviation geek.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by GyvAir » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:40 pm

Alav wrote:After an incident - wouldn't one choose to take steps to preserve that data?
Those steps would likely involve grounding the aircraft in question for the better part of a day. Retrieving the data from the recorders generally requires removing them from aircraft and sending them to an appropriate facility for data download. That would mean having to sourcing compatible replacements before returning the aircraft to service. Not something that’s likely to happen before the next morning. Not a very palatable scenario for a flight crew to propose for what was technically a go around, with no damage, delays or injuries. (Please don’t restart the semantic argument over whether this was a serious incident or not.)
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:55 pm

Alav wrote:They knew they were going to hear about it, so allowing it to be overwritten is kinda the same as physically erasing.
You're presuming an awful lot here including the intent to deceive.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:18 pm

Old fella wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
PPRune site..... 30 pages on an aircraft that did a go around at SFO. Somebody mention one time that place is a Speculators wet dream site, more drivel posted there that was thought humanly possible Same individual also indicated he saw posts from pilots in who spent most of their careers in the warm climate Southern Hemisphere speculating on Canadian North of 60 incidents, might have been that First Air '37 I don't know and care even less, especially on PPrune speculation. Enough said!!
Whether it is drivel or not is not what I am talking about. It is your statement that anyone who speculates is likely a failed applicant at AC. Now that is drivel. I bet that the vast majority of those posters on that thread are even Canadians. The point has been made. You don't know what you are talking about.

Plenty of speculation of course, just like every accident. But like Cat said, there are a hell of a lot of extremely experienced pilots posting on PPrune who do know what they are talking about, many over 67 years old.
Speculation is somebody's opinion nothing more or less regardless the medium where expressed. ''Tis the old adage "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". NTSB is the final authority on this incident they don't speculate.
Once again, you are proving that you still don't know what you are talking about. The NTSB has recently been accused of speculating in their reports. You can see the accusation and their response to it where they admit that they don't have they evidence but have issued a probable cause. And seeing as the CVR Just happened to be over-written, we once again have little hard evidence of what went on in the cockpit.


https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/ntsb ... 20sent.pdf
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:29 pm

Rockie wrote:
Alav wrote:They knew they were going to hear about it, so allowing it to be overwritten is kinda the same as physically erasing.
You're presuming an awful lot here including the intent to deceive.
And that is a possibility.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:32 pm

GyvAir wrote:
Alav wrote:After an incident - wouldn't one choose to take steps to preserve that data?
Those steps would likely involve grounding the aircraft in question for the better part of a day. Retrieving the data from the recorders generally requires removing them from aircraft and sending them to an appropriate facility for data download. That would mean having to sourcing compatible replacements before returning the aircraft to service. Not something that’s likely to happen before the next morning. Not a very palatable scenario for a flight crew to propose for what was technically a go around, with no damage, delays or injuries. (Please don’t restart the semantic argument over whether this was a serious incident or not.)
Isn't there a relief in the MEL to fly without a CVR for a short period of time especially if the DFDR is working?

If there is MEL relief, then the pilots could pull the C/B to deactivate the CVR and thus preserve the last 30 minutes.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by GyvAir » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:52 pm

There may be MEL provisions for that. I don't know. In any case, there would ultimately be quite a bit involved in capturing that data.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:56 pm

Jet Jockey wrote:And that is a possibility.
Lots of things are "possible". It doesn't mean they need to be mentioned unless one is suggesting it's what happened, which brings us back to presumption.
Jet Jockey wrote:Isn't there a relief in the MEL to fly without a CVR for a short period of time especially if the DFDR is working?

If there is MEL relief, then the pilots could pull the C/B to deactivate the CVR and thus preserve the last 30 minutes.
There is MEL relief for an unservicable CVR, but dispatching with the CB pulled for data retention is specifically prohibited in the MEL.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:55 pm

hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Whether it is drivel or not is not what I am talking about. It is your statement that anyone who speculates is likely a failed applicant at AC. Now that is drivel. I bet that the vast majority of those posters on that thread are even Canadians. The point has been made. You don't know what you are talking about.

Plenty of speculation of course, just like every accident. But like Cat said, there are a hell of a lot of extremely experienced pilots posting on PPrune who do know what they are talking about, many over 67 years old.
Speculation is somebody's opinion nothing more or less regardless the medium where expressed. ''Tis the old adage "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". NTSB is the final authority on this incident they don't speculate.
Once again, you are proving that you still don't know what you are talking about. The NTSB has recently been accused of speculating in their reports. You can see the accusation and their response to it where they admit that they don't have they evidence but have issued a probable cause. And seeing as the CVR Just happened to be over-written, we once again have little hard evidence of what went on in the cockpit.
https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/ntsb ... 20sent.pdf
I don't know your aviation background nor your license credentials and frankly not interested nor do I care. In review of your attachment referencing AOPA(by definition a political organization that advocates for general aviation) I took notice of comments on " personal agenda " in the Medical Examiner's Office of the NTSB as it relates to investigating GA fatal accidents. I stop reading at that point and disgard conspiracy thinking.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Alav » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:10 pm

GyvAir wrote: Those steps would likely involve grounding the aircraft in question for the better part of a day.
So what is the cost for having an aircraft OOS for a day, in comparison to the cost of the negative publicity involving the NTSB issuing a public release that chides your company for erasing the data?

You can't tell me there aren't plans for an aircraft to be placed out of service in a major hub. One just needs to deem it worthy of complying with the investigative processs.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:31 pm

Alav wrote:
GyvAir wrote: Those steps would likely involve grounding the aircraft in question for the better part of a day.
So what is the cost for having an aircraft OOS for a day, in comparison to the cost of the negative publicity involving the NTSB issuing a public release that chides your company for erasing the data?

You can't tell me there aren't plans for an aircraft to be placed out of service in a major hub. One just needs to deem it worthy of complying with the investigative processs.
If anybody is aware of the cost of negative publicity it is Air Canada. You also seem to be misinformed about some things.

SFO is a major hub for lots of American carriers which AC is not. AC does not have airplanes just sitting around in SFO, so this airplane was planned in with passengers and planned out with passengers just a few hours later. This happened late at night meaning AC may not even have been aware of this incident until the next day long after the aircraft left SFO. If they were they certainly didn't have at the time all the information you have now that it is being investigated.

Regarding the CVR, it's likely the crew wishes it were not over written as well since they no doubt are more eager than anyone else to find out how this incident developed because, it is virtually guaranteed they don't want to ever do it again.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by cgzro » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:47 pm

What are the regulations concerning preservation of data after an incident?
Are the regs different than for an accident?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by GyvAir » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:54 pm

Alav wrote:
GyvAir wrote: Those steps would likely involve grounding the aircraft in question for the better part of a day.
So what is the cost for having an aircraft OOS for a day, in comparison to the cost of the negative publicity involving the NTSB issuing a public release that chides your company for erasing the data?

You can't tell me there aren't plans for an aircraft to be placed out of service in a major hub. One just needs to deem it worthy of complying with the investigative processs.
NTSB:
The incident airplane’s cockpit voice recorder had been overwritten, so NTSB investigators did not have that data.
That's the entire mention of it, as far as I see. A bare statement of fact in an investigation update hardly constitutes chiding, in my books.

There was no investigation taking place for them to comply with when the aircraft departed on its next leg; nor was there, until 2 days later. Is it incumbent upon the operator of an aircraft or other vehicle to preserve any recorded data after a near miss, in anticipation of a possible investigation?

I would expect the pilots, in the hours following the incident, were focused on wrapping up the work day and getting some much needed rest, rather than scheming to make sure that the CVR gets over-written. I also expect that they fully complied with any and all requests made to them by ATC and FAA in the hours and days following.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by hamstandard » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:51 pm

Old fella wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
Speculation is somebody's opinion nothing more or less regardless the medium where expressed. ''Tis the old adage "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". NTSB is the final authority on this incident they don't speculate.
Once again, you are proving that you still don't know what you are talking about. The NTSB has recently been accused of speculating in their reports. You can see the accusation and their response to it where they admit that they don't have they evidence but have issued a probable cause. And seeing as the CVR Just happened to be over-written, we once again have little hard evidence of what went on in the cockpit.
https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/ntsb ... 20sent.pdf
I don't know your aviation background nor your license credentials and frankly not interested nor do I care. In review of your attachment referencing AOPA(by definition a political organization that advocates for general aviation) I took notice of comments on " personal agenda " in the Medical Examiner's Office of the NTSB as it relates to investigating GA fatal accidents. I stop reading at that point and disgard conspiracy thinking.
OK, so you won't even read what the NTSB said(a group you have stated your confidence in). What a surprise. All you have proven so far is that 67 years mean nothing, except that someone at any age can dig in their heels when proven wrong more than once. Not a good feature for the guys up front.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 am

hamstandard wrote:
Old fella wrote:
hamstandard wrote:
Once again, you are proving that you still don't know what you are talking about. The NTSB has recently been accused of speculating in their reports. You can see the accusation and their response to it where they admit that they don't have they evidence but have issued a probable cause. And seeing as the CVR Just happened to be over-written, we once again have little hard evidence of what went on in the cockpit.
https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/ntsb ... 20sent.pdf
I don't know your aviation background nor your license credentials and frankly not interested nor do I care. In review of your attachment referencing AOPA(by definition a political organization that advocates for general aviation) I took notice of comments on " personal agenda " in the Medical Examiner's Office of the NTSB as it relates to investigating GA fatal accidents. I stop reading at that point and disgard conspiracy thinking.
OK, so you won't even read what the NTSB said(a group you have stated your confidence in). What a surprise. All you have proven so far is that 67 years mean nothing, except that someone at any age can dig in their heels when proven wrong more than once. Not a good feature for the guys up front.
Yes, I have every confidence in the NTSB to get the incident in question(SFO) right as I do with our own TSB. Both very professional organizations with the highest of integrity.
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