AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

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Cat Driver
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#701 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:48 pm

It seems odd to me that after making the contributions that your cohort have to making this probably the safest mode of transportation on earth that you would make a statement like that. Airline travel in most of the world is safer today than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The statistics speak for themselves.
Yes I am very well aware that flying is getting safer as time passes.
Like I have said a few times, I am beginning to think I would feel more confident taking a train or a bus or just drive myself.
That statement is meant to be tongue in cheek. :mrgreen:
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#702 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:51 pm

Rockie wrote:It takes radical misuse of their position and/or gross repeated negligence or criminal conduct on the part of a doctor or lawyer to goad the college or bar into action and you know it. If that bar is crossed in our profession there will be criminal charges. Do you think that bar has been crossed?
Well, in the financial industry, it is a public execution, as it should be for wilful negligence. In that arena I have a ton more respect for the SEC than the spineless -- what else is new in the socialist paradise of Canada -- OSC.

Screw up down there and its jail, pal. Here? A slap on the wrist and a "don't do it again" lecture.

Wouldn't shock me at all if aviation was the same. Except behind closed doors, "for our own good".

Canada is so much more of an old boys club (or girls for all you Wynne supporters)
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#703 Post by photofly » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:56 pm

Rockie wrote:It takes radical misuse of their position and/or gross repeated negligence or criminal conduct on the part of a doctor or lawyer to goad the college or bar into action and you know it.
Actually, no it doesn't, at all. Any single act of negligence or professional misconduct will do. As it should, and as you would want it to, if you felt you'd received negligent care from your doctor, or negligent advice from your lawyer.

You don't know how protected your industry is.

Nobody is asking for the names of the pilots, but if it comes down to pilot error it's not inconceivable that AC reveals publicly that the pilots have been dismissed, or lost seniority, or required to retrain. It would be sensible, for the public to maintain confidence in AC's pilot selection and training procedures.
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Last edited by photofly on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#704 Post by Rockie » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:04 pm

I read the news Photofly and have for a very long time. The College of Physicians does not eject doctors for mistakes because they are made ALL THE TIME. If they did there would be no doctors. Multiply that by 1000 for lawyers. What they are dismissed for, and only reluctantly, is gross repeated criminal behavior. Deny it if you want but you only make yourselves look silly.

What exactly is your mission here with this incident anyway? Is it the truth?

Psssst..,Investigation
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#705 Post by photofly » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:09 pm

Rockie wrote:I read the news Photofly and have for a very long time. The College of Physicians does not eject doctors for mistakes because they are made ALL THE TIME. If they did there would be no doctors. Multiply that by 1000 for lawyers. What they are dismissed for, and only reluctantly, is gross repeated criminal behavior. Deny it if you want but you only make yourselves look silly.

What exactly is your mission here with this incident anyway? Is it the truth?

Psssst..,Investigation
I don't think you read the news as carefully as you think you do- there are dozens of cases of doctors receiving all sorts of sanctions well short of being struck off, for all sorts of mistakes.

And no, acts of negligence are not made by doctors or lawyers ALL THE TIME. When they are negligent, after investigation, there are a range of sanctions. All those are made public.

And there are also punishments AC can issue which are less severe than dismissal. It would be prudent for AC to reveal if the pilots are sanctioned.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#706 Post by Rockie » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:15 pm

photofly wrote:And no, acts of negligence are not made by doctors or lawyers ALL THE TIME. When they are negligent, after investigation, there are a range of sanctions. All those are made public.
Read what I said, I said mistakes.
photofly wrote:And there are also punishments AC can issue which are less severe than dismissal. It would be prudent for AC to reveal if the pilots are sanctioned.
No, it wouldn't.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#707 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:18 pm

Rockie wrote:
photofly wrote:And there are also punishments AC can issue which are less severe than dismissal. It would be prudent for AC to reveal if the pilots are sanctioned.
No, it wouldn't.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#708 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:24 pm

Father knows best. Sit down, shut up, children.
It is difficult to know if Rockie is arrogant or just plain ignorant on the subject of public perception.

I wonder what Air Canada as a company thinks of him coming across as their flag carrier on the internet? :roll:
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#709 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:25 pm

photofly wrote:
Rockie wrote:It takes radical misuse of their position and/or gross repeated negligence or criminal conduct on the part of a doctor or lawyer to goad the college or bar into action and you know it.
Actually, no it doesn't, at all. Any single act of negligence or professional misconduct will do. As it should, and as you would want it to, if you felt you'd received negligent care from your doctor, or negligent advice from your lawyer.

You don't know how protected your industry is.

Nobody is asking for the names of the pilots, but if it comes down to pilot error it's not inconceivable that AC reveals publicly that the pilots have been dismissed, or lost seniority, or required to retrain. It would be sensible, for the public to maintain confidence in AC's pilot selection and training procedures.
I would want the names of the pilots, if any incident is shown to be a result of wilful negligence. Same standard as the Doctor, Lawyer, Financial Advisor.

You choose to work in a position of high public trust, you lose the privilege of privacy -- IF -- you willfully --- mess up.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#710 Post by Rockie » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:48 pm

Well rookie pilot, unless the pilots are charged with something you're not going to get their names. Be thankful for that if you ever find yourself in their unfortunate position. And since you mention it, how do you know they willfully messed up?

Chuck, what did I say about talking to me and not running off for mutual support like you always do? You're supposed to be the courageous crusader who gives his own real name over the internet. I'm right here...talk to me.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#711 Post by photofly » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:15 pm

I don't think you can have willful negligence, it's a contradiction. I don't think there's any suggestion of willful misconduct here.
rookiepilot wrote:
I would want the names of the pilots, if any incident is shown to be a result of wilful negligence. Same standard as the Doctor, Lawyer, Financial Advisor.
Until you can choose which pilot is assigned to your flight, there wouldn't be much point. In fact airlines go to extreme lengths not to have "hero pilots" and "zero pilots" - the public prefers to think that their safety isn't in the hands of individuals (even though it very much is) and that the airline safety machine irons out any human flaws. So all pilots must be perceived as equally skilled and equally competent.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#712 Post by Rockie » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:24 pm

photofly wrote:I don't think you can have willful negligence, it's a contradiction. I don't think there's any suggestion of willful misconduct here.
rookiepilot wrote:
I would want the names of the pilots, if any incident is shown to be a result of wilful negligence. Same standard as the Doctor, Lawyer, Financial Advisor.
Until you can choose which pilot is assigned to your flight, there wouldn't be much point. In fact airlines go to extreme lengths not to have "hero pilots" and "zero pilots" - the public prefers to think that their safety isn't in the hands of individuals (even though it very much is) and that the airline safety machine irons out any human flaws. So all pilots must be perceived as equally skilled and equally competent.
I disagree. Everybody knows in every business regardless of what it is there are varying degrees of skill and aptitude. The thing about flying though is does everybody meet the standards of Transport Canada as a minimum and the company they work for which is often higher as is the case with Air Canada. If they do, they're safe. Furthermore we are competency checked by Transport Canada every six months in the simulator (eight months under AQP) and once a year on the line in addition to annual ground school. And we undergo annual medical checkups to maintain our license. Can doctors, plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, tax experts, financial advisors, chiropractors lawyers etc. say the same?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#713 Post by Old fella » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:35 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
photofly wrote:
Rockie wrote:It takes radical misuse of their position and/or gross repeated negligence or criminal conduct on the part of a doctor or lawyer to goad the college or bar into action and you know it.
Actually, no it doesn't, at all. Any single act of negligence or professional misconduct will do. As it should, and as you would want it to, if you felt you'd received negligent care from your doctor, or negligent advice from your lawyer.

You don't know how protected your industry is.

Nobody is asking for the names of the pilots, but if it comes down to pilot error it's not inconceivable that AC reveals publicly that the pilots have been dismissed, or lost seniority, or required to retrain. It would be sensible, for the public to maintain confidence in AC's pilot selection and training procedures.
I would want the names of the pilots, if any incident is shown to be a result of wilful negligence. Same standard as the Doctor, Lawyer, Financial Advisor.
You choose to work in a position of high public trust, you lose the privilege of privacy -- IF -- you willfully --- mess up.
Our 1000hr single engine boy/girl wonder speakith his Johnny Walker wisdom again.....
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#714 Post by confusedalot » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:09 pm

Uh...

Oh never mind. :smt014
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#715 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:10 pm

Old fella wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:
photofly wrote: Actually, no it doesn't, at all. Any single act of negligence or professional misconduct will do. As it should, and as you would want it to, if you felt you'd received negligent care from your doctor, or negligent advice from your lawyer.

You don't know how protected your industry is.

Nobody is asking for the names of the pilots, but if it comes down to pilot error it's not inconceivable that AC reveals publicly that the pilots have been dismissed, or lost seniority, or required to retrain. It would be sensible, for the public to maintain confidence in AC's pilot selection and training procedures.
I would want the names of the pilots, if any incident is shown to be a result of wilful negligence. Same standard as the Doctor, Lawyer, Financial Advisor.
You choose to work in a position of high public trust, you lose the privilege of privacy -- IF -- you willfully --- mess up.
Our 1000hr single engine boy/girl wonder speakith his Johnny Walker wisdom again.....
:drinkers: :drinkers: :drinkers:
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#716 Post by Old fella » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:40 pm

:weedman: :weedman:
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#717 Post by pelmet » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:11 pm

Here is an example of a method being used to prevent a line-up on the wrong runway. The US government charts(typically not used by the airlines) show both approach light designs on the same chart making it easy for the pilot to brief what to look for when it comes to the appearance of approach light systems. Take a look.....

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/600508-a ... malsr.html

You have to scroll down just a tiny bit. A picture is worth a thousand words.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#718 Post by pelmet » Wed May 02, 2018 7:54 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:46 pm
SFO near miss might have triggered ‘greatest aviation disaster in history’


What brutally sensationalist reporting. If it's even true, a non-event. Unless of course the pilots were landing with their eyes closed.
Ok...now we have some video. If you were on the taxiway, would you call it a non-event?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF7FR7T ... e=youtu.be

Apparently a report has been released. Couldn't find it but the media reported......"The National Transportation Safety Board is still investigating the July 2017 incident in which the Air Canada flight almost landed on a taxiway occupied by four other planes.

It hasn't concluded who was at fault, but the voluminous report released Wednesday includes interviews with the pilots, air traffic control and a chilling video clip of the aborted landing that shows the A320 with 140 people aboard coming close to another plane before turning its nose up and flying away.

The pilot and co-pilot reported being tired after flying from Toronto, according to the NTSB report.

The report also says co-pilot XXX XXXXXXX twice failed to earn a promotion to captain after getting unsatisfactory reviews during the process. Instructors said he made imprecise approaches before landings and seemed to lack understanding of situations and surroundings."
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#719 Post by pelmet » Wed May 02, 2018 9:08 pm

Found the info...the docket is out with all kinds of interesting info. Should take quite a while to read.

https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitl ... XTSEARCHT=
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#720 Post by bobcaygeon » Thu May 03, 2018 7:04 am

Does AC still "train to standard"?

Lifer FO?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#721 Post by FICU » Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am

I'm surprised the aircraft on the taxiway weren't madly flashing their landing lights once they confirmed the AC jet was lined up with the taxiway.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#722 Post by Rooster69 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:07 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:04 am
Does AC still "train to standard"?

Lifer FO?


Yes.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#723 Post by goingnowherefast » Thu May 03, 2018 7:51 am

Train to standard is one thing, but a strong personal drive to better one's abilities usually results in exceeding the standard. Not saying it's the case here, but some don't have the drive to improve, they feel that they're "good enough". Not picking on Air Canada's training either, you see it everywhere, and often with people who just barely meet the standard.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#724 Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 03, 2018 1:13 pm

Old fella wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:35 pm
Our 1000hr single engine boy/girl wonder speakith his Johnny Walker wisdom again.....
You're absolutely right. I know nothing about airline operations whatsoever.

I'm only curious if the crew briefed the Notam for the 28L closure.

I do know I was the crew on the ground of the closest aircraft I'd need to taxi back for an extended washroom visit --
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

#725 Post by FlyGy » Thu May 03, 2018 2:55 pm

FICU wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am
I'm surprised the aircraft on the taxiway weren't madly flashing their landing lights once they confirmed the AC jet was lined up with the taxiway.
Dude probably would have thought they were pre-threshold runway lights. I guess he would have at least missed the planes if he had landed.
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