AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

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tps8903
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by tps8903 »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Old fella wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:35 pm Our 1000hr single engine boy/girl wonder speakith his Johnny Walker wisdom again.....
You're absolutely right. I know nothing about airline operations whatsoever.

I'm only curious if the crew briefed the Notam for the 28L closure.

I do know I was the crew on the ground of the closest aircraft I'd need to taxi back for an extended washroom visit --
Looks like they did brief the NOTAM. The most telling item in my opinion is that the previous crew that landed also had a problem identifying 28R due to the very bright construction lights on the closed runway. They only found it after cross referencing with LNAV.

Maybe having excessively bright construction lights drowning out runway lights at an airport is a bad idea?

Backing up a VFR approach is probably a good idea as well.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by pelmet »

tps8903 wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 6:12 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Old fella wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:35 pm Our 1000hr single engine boy/girl wonder speakith his Johnny Walker wisdom again.....
You're absolutely right. I know nothing about airline operations whatsoever.

I'm only curious if the crew briefed the Notam for the 28L closure.

I do know I was the crew on the ground of the closest aircraft I'd need to taxi back for an extended washroom visit --
Looks like they did brief the NOTAM. The most telling item in my opinion is that the previous crew that landed also had a problem identifying 28R due to the very bright construction lights on the closed runway. They only found it after cross referencing with LNAV.

Maybe having excessively bright construction lights drowning out runway lights at an airport is a bad idea?

Backing up a VFR approach is probably a good idea as well.
According to Rockie earlier in this thread....it is difficult to do in the Airbus. Hopefully the NTSB will look into this.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

FICU wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am I'm surprised the aircraft on the taxiway weren't madly flashing their landing lights once they confirmed the AC jet was lined up with the taxiway.
They did!

Watch this video... At about 1:03 the second aircraft on the taxiway, a PAL Airbus 340, the one that's about to get hit (or crashed into), turns on all its landing lights... I'm convinced that's the only thing that saved the day! You can also see that the 340 gets completely illuminated by the AC's 320s landing lights.

After the 340's lights come on, the AC crew probably then realized their mistake and decided to initiate a missed approach. By 1:09 Air Canada is in the go around with a nose up attitude but not before it continued its descent over the other aircraft.

I can see where the calculations made by some people are probably fairly accurate when taking the data from the Air Canada's 320 DFDR showing it at it lowest point above ground (RA) and using the tail height of a 340, the clearance between the two aircrafts was less than 20 feet some say closer to 3 feet (tail section).

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF7FR7TjnME
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Diadem »

The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

Diadem wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.

Regardless whether it was 20 feet, 13.5 feet or 3 feet, I would call this a very, very close call.

IMHO, there is no excuse for this and I hope the pilots were severely reprimanded (not a slap on the wrist) for this incident and frankly if what I heard from inside sources (Air Canada pilots) the two up front were not, let us say the most professional pilots and one of them will be most likely (hopefully) be a copilot for life... Perhaps he shouldn't be flying an aircraft, any aircraft.
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Last edited by Jet Jockey on Fri May 04, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Bet the farm »

To anyone bad mouthing the FO for failing to upgrade: I bet the farm that you would have struggled mightily to pass in the same circumstances he found himself in, having received grave family news just prior to the start of training. In hindsight he should have removed himself as his head wasn’t in it. But other factors were pushing him to carry on. “During the return to the right seat, the FO performed above average” and “return to line check was above average and the recheck was above average” as stated by an AC trainer. He’s a better man than most of you keyboard warriors. IMHO.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by tps8903 »

Jet Jockey wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 am
Diadem wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.

Regardless whether it was 20 feet, 13.5 feet or 3 feet, I would call this a very, very close call.

IMHO, there is no excuse for this and I hope the pilots were severely reprimanded (not a slap on the wrist) for this incident and frankly if what I heard from inside sources (Air Canada pilots) the two up front were not, let us say the most professional pilots and one of them will be most likely (hopefully) a copilot for life... Perhaps he shouldn't be flying an aircraft, any aircraft.
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the FO failing to upgrade. He has his role in this incident, no doubt, but the Captain was flying the plane, and it was a visual approach. Any way you slice it the captain is the one responsible for this incident, and was the one controlling the aircraft as he flew into the path of 4 aircraft and came within feet of killing 1000 people. The FO failing to upgrade is a red herring in this investigation.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by C.W.E. »

He’s a better man than most of you keyboard warriors. IMHO.
Interesting comment.

But for your opinion to have any validity we need to know what a keyboard warrior is?

And what a keyboard has to do with flying skills?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by rookiepilot »

Bet the farm wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:34 am
He’s a better man than most of you keyboard warriors. IMHO.
That is certainly an interesting comment, like CVE says.

-------

I am sorry perhaps for the directness of some of my earlier comments in the thread, it's not a punitive desire to hang a crew, simply and frankly, this incident scares me, as a frequent commercial pax. What's going on?

If that is hysteria to some -- so be it. It's not a "nothing to see, move along", either.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

tps8903 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 11:12 am There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the FO failing to upgrade... The FO failing to upgrade is a red herring in this investigation.
The fact that he failed one perhaps two upgrades is perhaps a red herring in this incident. However if he is the type of pilot that lacks situational awareness, lacks the skills to be ahead of the aircraft he flies, is sloppy when it comes to company/aircraft procedures and SOPs, then the captain if he is not the same type of pilot cannot rely on his FO in critical moments.

There seems to be some on here that are obviously Air Canada pilots that want to deflect the problems towards procedures, towards the aircraft or towards even Canadian visibility rules when something wrong happens with an Air Canada crew. The problem in this incident is that two pilots on a VFR approach screwed the pooch big time and frankly I don't care what rookiepilot says because even if they did ultimately Go Around, they waited way too late to do it and I'll bet a beer that the only reason they initiated a missed approach in the first palace was that the Airbus 340 turned on their landing lights. How else can you explain that the aircraft went down to 60' AGL before starting a climb?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by C.W.E. »

I have thought about this a lot and even if they both were to tired to fly safely how did they get that close to those airplanes with their lights on parked on the taxiway facing them?

It is almost unbelievable.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 4:21 pm
And what a keyboard has to do with flying skills?
Perhaps a lot!

The problem today is the kids don't learn to fly anymore (real seat of the pants flying), they are no more than just robots that have been stuffed with all kinds of information and theories of flight but no real life experience flying in the low levels, in the crappy weather in icing conditions with piston powered aircrafts of small turboprops where you not only develop flying skills but also command skills. We are now beyond the "Children of Magenta Line".
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 5:47 pm I have thought about this a lot and even if they both were to tired to fly safely how did they get that close to those airplanes with their lights on parked on the taxiway facing them?

It is almost unbelievable.
Me too!
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

Bet the farm wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:34 am To anyone bad mouthing the FO for failing to upgrade: I bet the farm that you would have struggled mightily to pass in the same circumstances he found himself in, having received grave family news just prior to the start of training. In hindsight he should have removed himself as his head wasn’t in it. But other factors were pushing him to carry on. “During the return to the right seat, the FO performed above average” and “return to line check was above average and the recheck was above average” as stated by an AC trainer. He’s a better man than most of you keyboard warriors. IMHO.

Here we go... more excuses.

I have friend that is now retired from Air Canada (senior captain on the A320) and he was also on course (upgrade) when something terrible happened in his life. He went to management and asked for a leave of absence which he got. That was the right thing to do and after things went back to normal his life he went back on course.

As for your version of this copilots return to the right seat, I'll take your word for it at face value because it is only hearsay. The fact that an AC Trainer is letting it known that this pilot is/was better than average is also a red herring in my books. How pilots perform while in training and during a test or while in line indoc should not be public knowledge whether it is good or bad. If I ever heard a check pilot was letting it known to others that so and so was weak or better than average, I would have a word with him.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot »

This thread just so happened to be at the top of the list, so I read it......again......

A few things here I feel to comment on. Not through merit but by circumstance, did it the old way, and did it the new way.

Yes, there is the children of the magenta line syndrome. Both of these guys are of an age group well before the magenta line, so that is not the answer. They know better and as the cliché goes, it's like riding a bike, even if you have not done so for a while, it comes back real fast.

Yes, there are the keyboard warriors. Funniest part though, the pre keyboard generation actually seems to handle the typewriting better that the PC generation!!! I am thinking fancy lines being drawn up on such as the expressway visual in LGA with not a whole lot of effort, and just to give a prettier picture in order to enhance situational awareness; many of the ''young guys'' could not even be bothered. At the end of the day, pretty sure these two were competent at their typewriting, so that's probably not the smoking gun.

Important family issues can certainly affect anyone, I have had my share. Just like anyone else may I add. Can't speak for others but I can certainly say that they do not render you a complete vegetable that is incapable of doing a job you have done so many times before. I doubt the FO's unfortunate luck had anything to do with it.

Not that I am any better than anyone else, but I have never made THAT kind of error. Nor have I flown with anyone who was about to make that kind of error. So it remains a HUGE mystery in my mind. Two competent pilots, with steam driven and glass cockpit time, and so on.......Big mystery.

I dunno; complacency? For example, brief a parallel runway scenario and then stop thinking? It gets into the confirmation bias psycho babble stuff and the easiest path to take sort of thinking that humans tend to fall for.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by C.W.E. »

Further to confusedalot's comments which most of us can relate to there is still the troubling issue of this was beyond any doubt one of the most serious cases of a crew flying for a major airline coming so close to flying into a line of airplanes all lit up on a taxi way that the investigators are having a tough time measuring just how close they actually were.

What has been done by Air Canada to reassure the public this will not happen again?

One thing for sure it was so unbelievable that a crew could be that out of the situational awareness loop that no one can figure out where they were, it sure was not flying the arplane.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by mbav8r »

Jet Jockey wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 am
Diadem wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.

Regardless whether it was 20 feet, 13.5 feet or 3 feet, I would call this a very, very close call.

IMHO, there is no excuse for this and I hope the pilots were severely reprimanded (not a slap on the wrist) for this incident and frankly if what I heard from inside sources (Air Canada pilots) the two up front were not, let us say the most professional pilots and one of them will be most likely (hopefully) be a copilot for life... Perhaps he shouldn't be flying an aircraft, any aircraft.
Jet Jockey wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 6:31 pm [quote="Bet the farm" post_id=<a href="tel:1038798">1038798</a> time=<a href="tel:1525455269">1525455269</a> user_id=58414]
To anyone bad mouthing the FO for failing to upgrade: I bet the farm that you would have struggled mightily to pass in the same circumstances he found himself in, having received grave family news just prior to the start of training. In hindsight he should have removed himself as his head wasn’t in it. But other factors were pushing him to carry on. “During the return to the right seat, the FO performed above average” and “return to line check was above average and the recheck was above average” as stated by an AC trainer. He’s a better man than most of you keyboard warriors. IMHO.

Here we go... more excuses.

I have friend that is now retired from Air Canada (senior captain on the A320) and he was also on course (upgrade) when something terrible happened in his life. He went to management and asked for a leave of absence which he got. That was the right thing to do and after things went back to normal his life he went back on course.

As for your version of this copilots return to the right seat, I'll take your word for it at face value because it is only hearsay. The fact that an AC Trainer is letting it known that this pilot is/was better than average is also a red herring in my books. How pilots perform while in training and during a test or while in line indoc should not be public knowledge whether it is good or bad. If I ever heard a check pilot was letting it known to others that so and so was weak or better than average, I would have a word with him.
[/quote]
So, Betthefarm’s hearsay is somehow less reliable than yours, were your inside sources better than his?
There is no question, it was a close call screw up but it’s not like they didn’t question it, they asked tower to confirm the runway was clear, who didn’t know they were lined up for a crowded taxiway when confirming it. Maybe a little confirmation bias, tower confirmed for them that their eyes were playing tricks on them.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by pelmet »

tps8903 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 11:12 am
Jet Jockey wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 am
Diadem wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.

Regardless whether it was 20 feet, 13.5 feet or 3 feet, I would call this a very, very close call.

IMHO, there is no excuse for this and I hope the pilots were severely reprimanded (not a slap on the wrist) for this incident and frankly if what I heard from inside sources (Air Canada pilots) the two up front were not, let us say the most professional pilots and one of them will be most likely (hopefully) a copilot for life... Perhaps he shouldn't be flying an aircraft, any aircraft.
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the FO failing to upgrade. He has his role in this incident, no doubt, but the Captain was flying the plane, and it was a visual approach. Any way you slice it the captain is the one responsible for this incident, and was the one controlling the aircraft as he flew into the path of 4 aircraft and came within feet of killing 1000 people. The FO failing to upgrade is a red herring in this investigation.
Having a sharp F/O can make all the difference in the world. A weak one, not as likely. The crew work as a team and the PM is the one who is more likely to notice a misalignment like this.

Media reports are saying the crew was tired. Apparently they had a day flight the day before. If this was overly tiring(and one can get tired), good thing they don't do long haul flights then where you can be up ALL night. I wonder if any enroute controlled rest was attempted. Some people seem more interested in chatting or reading in my experience. Power naps can do wonders.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Eric Janson »

Jet Jockey wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 am
Diadem wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am The NTSB determined that the AC plane missed PAL's tail by 13.5 feet, +/- 5 feet.

Regardless whether it was 20 feet, 13.5 feet or 3 feet, I would call this a very, very close call.

IMHO, there is no excuse for this and I hope the pilots were severely reprimanded (not a slap on the wrist) for this incident and frankly if what I heard from inside sources (Air Canada pilots) the two up front were not, let us say the most professional pilots and one of them will be most likely (hopefully) be a copilot for life... Perhaps he shouldn't be flying an aircraft, any aircraft.
From the NTSB docket.
The lowest adjusted radio altitude (nominally indicating the bottom of the landing gear, the
fuselage would be an additional 5 ft higher), which occurred as the airplane passed over
PAL115, was 60 ft. Measurements were made using an image of the security camera footage to
confirm this altitude reading. The image when ACA759 and PAL115 are closest is quite small
in the camera frame, so measurements made from the pixilated image are approximate. The
vertical stabilizer of the A340 was well illuminated and is 8.2 m (26.9 ft) tall (Figure 6).
Assuming ACA759 passed directly over PAL1151, the distance between the two airplanes in the
image was measured to be 13.5 ft. Allowing for uncertainty, this measurement was bracketed to
be between 10 and 20 ft of air gap. An A340 is 55 ft tall, so the altitude of the fuselage of
ACA759 as it passed over PAL115 was between 65 and 75 ft. This is consistent with the
adjusted radio altitude.
People earlier is this thread were describing this as a 'non event' - unbelievable. The video is very disturbing to watch.

If I did something this this it would cost me my job - I'm 100% certain of that.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by photofly »

It *is* fun to go and re-read some of the fist posts in this thread, for sure.

Maybe that first press report linked to, was more accurate than some thought?
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