AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

[Rockie]

You're still, rather hilariously, obfuscating. Nothing for discovering the mistake ... good. Nothing for the go-around ...very good. What about the consequences for making the mistake in the first place?

Nope, not obfuscating either. Nothing for discovering the mistake, nothing for the go-around, and nothing for making a mistake. But the reason for the mistake matters as I've been very patiently explaining to you guys that seem only interested in seeing someone hang.

The reason airlines have the best safety record of any facet of aviation (they do...really) is in large part because they realize people make mistakes for all kinds of reasons, and so devote their efforts to preventing them, capturing them when they do happen, and enacting measures to prevent them from happening again. Rarely is something just the crew's fault, there are often other contributing factors that if ignored will only increase the odds of it happening again. That's why there are investigations. You've heard of them right?

Investigations find out not just what happened but most importantly why. I get you and rookiepilot want to see this crew hang, and if after the investigation they are found to be negligent or willfully non-compliant with policy and procedures there will be consequences I can assure you. You'll probably never know if or what though. Tough shit.

"The airplane made me do it.", lol.
But seriously, at what altitude does a minor error excusable under SMS or some self-reporting schemes become negilgence worthy of disciplinary action?

There is no altitude, it's the reasons why as I've said. I know you would like me to say 500' is ok but at 499' the crew is shot at dawn, but that isn't the case. Should I explain why yet again?

"The airplane made me do it.", lol.

I never said or implied that...pay attention.

Rockie, if *you* had been looking out of the window that night, at four airliners on the taxiway on which you were lined up, at what altitude would you have called for the go-round?

I'd go-around when I identified the necessity. Asking what I or anyone else would do who wasn't there is a fool's game.

Who is the officer at AC who, with all the reports and interviews in from of them, makes the decision if this was negligence, and what, if any consequences the pilots should suffer?

Again I'll bring up that word "investigation".

[pelmet]

Actually Old Fella I'm about 1000 TT and as a %, a good deal of IMC time. Some even in sh-- weather too. But whatever.

Again that's totally irrelevant. A student pilot can determine something went seriously south here.

You're a professional pilot, (which I've never claimed to be here, ever) seriously labelling this a simple, run of the mill missed approach by another professional crew? Nothing to see here?

Can we not call things what they are?

This thread just gets better.

1000TT single engine flying IFR.... coming up in the aviation world, I digress. Yes, I was a professional- retired for some time but professional enough to realize I am not qualified to pass judgement on an airline operation and its flight crew on what they..... well whatever. I don't even know how to start the engines on an Air Canada A320 let alone trying to get my head into that flight crew that night in SFO. If you and your single engine/student pilot brethren feel you can add to the discourse on AC ops, honesty what else is there for me to say. See ya!!!!!!

Neither am I remotely qualified, and please quote me where I overtly passed a definitive judgement on this crew, unless labelling this a serious incident does so. NTSB thinks so.

But then again, to call this a simple missed approach is a bit of a stretch, yes?

I asked a simple question, "Did this crew read and brief the Notam for the runway 28L closure?"

Since the response is to attack my lack of experience, suppose there is little for me to say, either.

As the saying goes....play the ball, not the man. Of course that might only be applicable if you are capable of playing the ball.

[Eric Janson]

Are you saying your company would just fire you without trying to find out why it happened?

My contract has 30 days notice (either party). They can end my contract anytime they want - they don't have to give a reason.

So yes - I'm quite sure I'd be getting 30 days notice.

It's happened to me before. At my previous employer my contract was ended and I was basically forced out of the country. I have no idea what I did to trigger this.

They weren't very nice about it.

[Rockie]

Are you saying your company would just fire you without trying to find out why it happened?

My contract has 30 days notice (either party). They can end my contract anytime they want - they don't have to give a reason.

So yes - I'm quite sure I'd be getting 30 days notice.

It's happened to me before. At my previous employer my contract was ended and I was basically forced out of the country. I have no idea what I did to trigger this.

They weren't very nice about it.

The perils of working overseas I guess.

[rxl]

The reason airlines have the best safety record of any facet of aviation (they do...really) is in large part because they realize people make mistakes for all kinds of reasons, and so devote their efforts to preventing them, capturing them when they do happen, and enacting measures to prevent them from happening again. Rarely is something just the crew's fault, there are often other contributing factors that if ignored will only increase the odds of it happening again. That's why there are investigations. You've heard of them right?

Investigations find out not just what happened but most importantly why. I get you and rookiepilot want to see this crew hang, and if after the investigation they are found to be negligent or willfully non-compliant with policy and procedures there will be consequences I can assure you. You'll probably never know if or what though. Tough shit.

Something that the average 1,000hour private pilot, no matter how skilled or current has the resources to do.

[Cat Driver]

Something that the average 1,000hour private pilot, no matter how skilled or current has the resources to do.

The average private pilot acquires the skills to fly night VFR in far less than 1000 hours and he/she does not generally have a second pilot to cross check the approach and landing..

We now live in a new era where accountability takes a back seat to warm fuzzy coddling of those who screw up so it becomes a learning experience.

Like I have said a few times, I am beginning to think I would feel more confident taking a train or a bus or just drive myself.

[Rockie]

The pilots here surpassed the 1000 night VFR mark a long time ago, and have since proven themselves as consistent aviation professionals. They give nothing up to you . or anybody else. You harp on endlessly about your experience yet do not recognize it in anybody outside your little clique. I for one am getting weary of gods of aviation wanting this crew hung out to dry while conveniently forgetting their own massive screw ups they got away with without it hitting the news.

Yes ., I mean you. Anybody like you who claims 2 centuries of flying without their share of massive fuckup's is lying.

Go ahead and take Greyhound...

[Cat Driver]

I vowed not to answer you directly again Rockie.

However seeing as you have insinuated I have screwed up massively but never got caught I would like to inform you in over fifty years flying commercially for over thirty thousand accident free and regulatory violation free I never ever even once screwed up to the extent that crew did....period.

I for one am getting weary of gods of aviation wanting this crew hung out to dry while conveniently forgetting their own massive screw ups they got away with without it hitting the news.

If you can show even one instance in my career where I massively screwed up I am demanding you post it here.

Otherwise you are way out of line because I am very proud of my flying history whether you agree or not.

[rookiepilot]

The pilots here surpassed the 1000 night VFR mark a long time ago, and have since proven themselves as consistent aviation professionals. They give nothing up to you . or anybody else. You harp on endlessly about your experience yet do not recognize it in anybody outside your little clique. I for one am getting weary of gods of aviation wanting this crew hung out to dry while conveniently forgetting their own massive screw ups they got away with without it hitting the news.

This is a forum for analysis, Rockie. We are -- analysing. No one has said hang them out to dry. You seem to have a problem with a few simple questions.

What I'm hearing here is -- if its an Asiana, go all guns blazing. Rip the crew to shreds, cause on that thread that's exactly what happened.

Good ole' Canadian boys? Hard landings, and missed approaches. And gosh if the crews actions are even mildly questioned, that would mean the end of life on this planet.

I find that extremely hypocritical, and arrogant, too. So I have NO problem mocking that attitude.

So I'll give you another chance, to define "negligence". IF (a) crew did not read and brief (a) Notam, assuming they got it ---- and that led to an "incident" -- would that qualify as negligence?

I may only have 1000 hours. Doesn't mean I can't analyse.

[Rockie]

Heard it a thousand times .. It was bullshit the first time.

[Cat Driver]

We are wasting our time with Rockie rookiepilot he would defend his colleagues regardless of how serious their screw ups were.

Maybe Air Canada could put him in charge of public relations, that otta make interesting reading.

[Rockie]

You never heard me rip the Asiana crew rookiepilot so check your facts before you accuse someone of hypocrisy. And your asking me to speculate on a serious issue that has yet to be determined. I'm not interested, but if necessary I will explain to you once again the purpose of an investigation.

[Cat Driver]

Heard it a thousand times .. It was bullshit the first time.

You are dumber than I thought Rockie.

You are calling me a liar on a world wide read aviation forum, that not only is libellous unless you can show proof I am lying you are breaking the rules of the forum.

Remember I do not hide behind a made up name so when you call me a liar you should at least do so using your real name.

[Rockie]

Speak to me .. Don't go running off looking for mutual support like you always do.

[Rockie]

Sue me.

[Cat Driver]

Sue me.

Now that is real class.

My flying history is very well recorded in many different magazines and all over the internet Rockie.

Your record as a pilot is like your name, no one here has a clue if you even are a pilot.

This is what I said and if is specific Rockie, everyone screws up but few of us do to the extent that crew did.

I never ever even once screwed up to the extent that crew did....period.

Anyhow enough of giving you what you crave which is replying to you.

. ..

[Rockie]

My record is squeaky clean too, but like every human being flying airplanes i have had my share of screw ups that never made the news. Are you a human .?

The bullshit flag awaits....

[photofly]

I get you and rookiepilot want to see this crew hang

He might do, I don't.

and if after the investigation they are found to be negligent or willfully non-compliant with policy and procedures there will be consequences I can assure you. You'll probably never know if or what though.

Why will I never know?

And what do you mean "probably"? You wouldn't be speculating about whether I'll know or not, would you? Shame on you. Wit for the facts, man!

[Rockie]

Why would you? Does the Royal Bank post ads when they take administrative action against one of their employees? Why would/should something like that be public knowledge?

[rxl]

Something that the average 1,000hour private pilot, no matter how skilled or current has the resources to do.

The average private pilot acquires the skills to fly night VFR in far less than 1000 hours and he/she does not generally have a second pilot to cross check the approach and landing..

We now live in a new era where accountability takes a back seat to warm fuzzy coddling of those who screw up so it becomes a learning experience.

Like I have said a few times, I am beginning to think I would feel more confident taking a train or a bus or just drive myself.

To be clear I am referring to the undeniable fact that no 1,000 hour private pilot no matter how skilled or current has the motivation or resources that major world airlines do to assist in a thorough investigation into incidents like this and to disseminate the lessons learned from that investigation.
I have nothing but the greatest respect and gratitude for the pilots of your generation who have earned their living flying airplanes and especially for those who have passed along the lessons learned the hard way to the rest of us. It seems odd to me that after making the contributions that your cohort have to making this probably the safest mode of transportation on earth that you would make a statement like that. Airline travel in most of the world is safer today than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The statistics speak for themselves.